LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

AD played 7 minutes last night, 0 points

D-Lo didn't play either.

LeBron has played more career games than Michael Jordan and Joel Embid combined.

Jamison > Gasol ITT

The point is that APG is meaningless in the goat debate because Nash, Magic or Mark Jackson have better APG than Jordan but they aren't GOAT either just like Lebron isn't.... Otoh, a GOAT case based on Jordan's PPG cannot be busted up in this manner because he's the goat scorer with far higher PPG than anyone in the regular season and playoffs..

It's easy to forget that the best players on a team must be good scorers, but they don't have to be good at the secondary or role player categories of rebounding, passing and defense.. Of course MJ was great at all of these too so it's all a moot point - he was better than lebron at offensive rebounds, steals, blocks, defense, and he even averaged more playoff APG thru 9 playoff runs apiece until the Curry era began.

Furthermore, the mathematical reality cannot be ignored that Lebron is a high scorer with low assisted rate, and this high volume of unassisted buckets leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles and lowers their assists - so it's statistical fact that Lebron achieves his APG at the expense of teammates' APG, which is why his teams take two steps forward and then two steps back - they never fully-realize the roster's potential and the results tell the story, such as the most losses ever with favored rosters, i.e. preseason favorites, Finals teams, or multiple all-star teammates.

Finally, Lebron's APG is actually weak relative to other low-assisted players (ball-dominators like Luka or CP3), while not being much better than highly-assisted players (off-ball players like Bird or MJ).. He actually averaged less APG than Jordan thru 9 playoff runs and half their chips until the Curry era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards.. His APG simply isn't impressive given his ball-dominance, reduction of teammates APG, and goat turnovers.

We obviously know what Lebron did in this era and witnessed his APG increase along with the league's from 2015 onwards, but we don't know what Lebron would do in prior eras, so we can't normalize his stats... But it's funny that we would need to do that for a so-called "vastly superior playmaker" to actually beat MJ in playoff APG (pre-Curry era)... And we know that the higher team assists in the 80's and 90's vs Lebron's prime is because 1st options were highly-assisted with many assisted buckets until the late 90's and early 2000's when a bunch of low-assisted 1st options brought more unassisted buckets into the league.. This is statistical and historical fact.. So you guys lost the debate in every way imaginable.

Show me where MJ was popping pills on the bench... Show me where MJ took breaks mid-season to get "new juice"... Show me where Juanita and Tim Grover were caught receiving PED's for him.

The fraud is right there in front of your eyes but you refuse to see it... Or you're HAPPY that it continues because you're hooked on it!!!!.... it's pretty remarkable to witness this aspect of the human condition - it's like a WWE fan that secretly really believes.

Oh, and show me where MJ took the top 3 players in the East and put them on 1 team, which ruined his primary rival's career (KD), who responded 6 years too late after a manufactured resume had already been built.. This opened the Overton window of less competitiveness, so we've seen easy-scoring rules and load management follow Lebron's collusions.

Reaves, Rui, and Knecht can all shoot and create their own shot, so they're are all better scorers than Pippen, who was mostly a dunker with worst-ever bricklaying efficiency - he and took 4 years to learn a 15-20 ppg role in the triangle (his peak), otherwise he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle in 89' or 99' onwards.. D-Lo is a better scorer and passer than Pippen, while AD is far better on both ends.... that's how stacked these Lakers are and it took 6 years of yearly overhauls to get the Lakers to this point that the cast can score a lot and allow the old man to face minimal defensive attention.

The number of All-NBA selections for all winning sidekicks BEFORE they won titles is zero, and dozens after they won.

Let that sink in.

Winning sidekicks like Klay, Pippen, Pau, Parker, Ginobili, Dumars, and Worthy had zero All-NBA selections before they won titles.

So winning sidekicks like Pau and Pippen are inflated by the winning spotlight to media accolade and all-time status, despite otherwise being secondary producers and regular 15-20 ppg guys that no one would notice on other teams.. Aside from Worthy, none of these guys were elite-producing "franchise players" that were asked to build a lottery team from scratch - they were all secondary producers that got All-NBA recognition after winning titles.. This is the historical record.

KD ruined his own career by piggyback joining the 73-9 Warriors earning two mickey mouse cupcake rings, which de facto ruined the league for 2 seasons -- which isn't even up for discussion.

MJ took years off during his career because he couldn't handle the grind I guess. And he played in the 90's and is very high on the list of probable PED users if you actually think about it. He was exposed to the MLB scene right when steroids were all over MLB and then he came back to the NBA bigger and stronger. And then after 3 more years he needed to retire again. The ultimate load manager.

This is an excellent point and when you compare MJ and LeBron James' statistical output it's hard to ignore. Numbers in the 80s and 90s were very inflated because scorekeepers could do whatever they wanted. But in LeBron's era, primarily due to the gambling industry (for better and worse), the stat sheet is a lot more regulated and checked/verified. Therefore Jordan's numbers are inflated relative to LeBron's, which is more evidence, in a growing pile of evidence, that LeBron is better than MJ and it's not particularly close. This is becoming more and more clear over time as the debate continues.

Out of curiosity, I looked at some of Kobe's career numbers. Now, keep in mind, we have already proven with historical data that assisted fg% does not matter because it is minimally, or even negatively in some years, correlated with wins. This mathematically proves it is irrelevant. But looking at a specific case (Kobe Bryant):

Kobe Bryant in the years the LA Lakers won the NBA championship:
40.32% assisted% for field goals made

Kobe Bryant in the years the LA Lakers lost and did not win the NBA championship:
40.65% assisted% for field goals made

Thus there is no correlation between assisted fg% and winning rings / mostly dominant champions / dynasties. In fact the assisted fg% of Kobe Bryant is a little lower in the years the Lakers won.

Now, let's look at the statistical correlation of Phil Jackson and mostly winning dynasties:

When Phil Jackson was the coach of the LA Lakers, the Lakers won 5 championships in 11 seasons. A championship frequency of 45.45%
When Kobe Bryant was a member of the LA Lakers, but Phil Jackson was not the coach, they won zero (0) championships in 9 seasons. A championship frequency of 0%.

Based on historical data, there is no, or even negative, correlation with assisted fg% of the team and the first option (at least when that option is a shooting guard) and team wins and championships. Thus we have conclusively determined that assisted fg% is irrelevant.

However, when an elite coach like Phil Jackson leads a team and implements the proper scheme (e.g. the triangle) they can elevate this fully losing team (zero championships for Kobe and MJ without Phil Jackson) into multiple dynasties (11 championships). This proves that Phil Jackson rescued the careers and legacies of both MJ and Kobe -- without Phil Jackson they had zero championships between them. With Phil Jackson they had 11. Phil Jackson was able to take their mostly losing, non-versatile skillset (high scoring shooting guard; in Kobe's case a very inefficient one), and integrate it into a high ball-movement offense to create a well oiled machine.

LeBron James, on the other hand, did not need Phil Jackson and the triangle to win across 3 different teams (creating the mostly winning LeBron James dynasty from 2012 to 2016 across two of those teams). His elite ball movement was organic and already present in his versatile skillset due to his playmaking ability; light-years better than both MJ and especially Kobe.

Furthermore, even though we have proven that assisted fg% is completely irrelevant and does not matter at all based on the data, we even have data-driven mathematical proof that LeBron James was "highly assisted" at many points in his career. Thus we have even proven that LeBron James could be trivially integrated into an offense like the triangle. The reverse is not true -- MJ and Kobe have actually played 16 seasons combined without Phil Jackson as a coach and they have never won an NBA championship without him.

I realize this thread has been solved, but the evidence keeps mounting. I feel like it's important to post the data and statistical analysis showing that assisted fg% is completely irrelevant and it is actually elite players and roster construction, elite coaching, and elite scheme that leads to dynasties. It's not, in fact, one player (a high-scoring shooting guard; the least versatile position on the court), and a completely irrelevant statistic (assisted fg%) that determines dynasties. I know we all knew this, but it is important to show the overwhelming amount of data proving this conclusively.

The Lakers/Warriors game was the most watched regular season game in over 5 years.

So it seems that LeBron is still what the fans want to see.

What would you have KD do??... Are Lebron's peers supposed to keep toiling away and trying to win with the team that drafted them while Lebron is teaming up with opposing franchise players?.. How long were his peers supposed to sit around and let Lebron get the unprecedented advantage of 6 straight preseason favorites, a sidekick that outplayed the current MVP, and the top 3 PER's in the league on 1 team (the "decision")??

It's intuitive that a new unprecedented advantage is required to overcome a previous one, so a team-up with the Warriors was required to overcome the caliber of deck-stacking that Lebron was doing.. It should be against league rules for Lebron, Kobe or the reigning MVP to team up with the next 2 PER's in the league... (edit: the "decision" put 3 of the top 4 PER's in the league on 1 team)..

Essentially, Lebron's rings were cupcake, which required KD to get even more cupcake rings.. Durant's big mistake was waiting 6 years to respond.. It was too late by then, so his moves looked desperate and he got 2nd pickings of older players (aside from the Warriors)... And fans didn't let him get away with deck-stacking like they did Lebron - Lebron was a first-mover in the colluding space, so he got first pickings of prime players and he got away with it perception-wise.. So again, Lebron's "decision" to start stacking the deck caught his peers by surprise and ruined their careers because the deck-stacking stole organic chips from 12' Durant, 13' Duncan, and 16' Curry, and also put the aforementioned desperate/chasing perception on KD that reduced his stature.

Lebron should've just stayed in Cleveland because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs that year, which Dirk grabbed... But the Cavs' would've had the long-standing chemistry and defensive excellence to easily destroy the Mavs - with the chemistry and defense taken care of, it's basically Lebron vs Dirk and I like Lebron in that matchup...

Once Lebron wins in 11', it's all different and all the good players will come to Cleveland... 15 years later in 2025, he would have 5+ chips easily, multiple dominant champions, dynasties, and 25 years with the same team - now THAT'S goat.. Unfortunately, he gave up on learning the chemistry required to win with the roster he was given (organically), and opted for a talent-based approach instead (team-hopping, all-star team strategy).. This cheat-code approach opened the Overton window of less competitiveness that followed with the easy-scoring format, load management and decimated ratings.
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Fallguy,

If LeBron jumped off a bridge -- does that mean KD should jump off a bridge too?

Your arguments have more holes in them than Swiss Cheese!

A reminder that the Miami Heat were 105-141 in the 3 years before LeBron signed with them. And Spoelstra had only 2 years coaching experience. A different situation than Kevin Durant joining the team coming off the best regular season record of all time.

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2010 Wade.......... 28 PER...... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe........... 21 PER...... 4.1 BPM

Lebron teamed up with a Kobe-level player but went 2 for 4 including the goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do...

How is this not evidence of a horrible brand of ball that underachieves favored talent??... And this was just the beginning - he underachieved favored rosters for another 10 years by mostly losing with preseason favorites and Finals teams.

Lebron will perennially-lose into infinity and you guys will be saying "he just needs a little more help" into your graves.. It's probably easier to just understand that his skillset employs a bad brand of ball and chemistry that will always underachieve favored talent - all high-scorers that are low-assisted (ball-dominators) have this affliction and it stems from their large volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around and lowers their assists..

The top 3 players in the East from 3 separate teams joined forces on 1 team and diluted their conference... Somehow Lebron got credit for winning the conference after this.. The top 3 PER's in the league joined forces (edit: 3 of the top 4)... So imagine Jokic teaming up with the #2 and #4 PER's (Shai and Giannis).

If Lebron wanted to be like MJ or greater than MJ, he would've just teamed up with Bosh.... Teaming up with an all-time franchise player and leader like Wade is unfair and unprecedented because Lebron and Wade were #1 and #2 across the board in 2010 (PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48), so that's like Magic teaming up with Bird.... Wade was considered better than Kobe at the time that Lebron teamed up with him - there's a faction of people that still swear Wade was MVP in 2009 and 2010.

If you're at the top of your industry and your primary competitor starts stacking the deck, you have no choice but to respond in kind... But apparently, you aren't a businessman... We're talking about a competitive playing field that Lebron ruined by teaming up with his opponents.

Durant's only problem was waiting 6 years to respond - he should've teamed up right after Lebron did because his organic chip in 2012 was stolen by Lebron's deck-stacking.

Durant had already proved his superiority to Lebron by taking baby Westbrick to the Finals, which Lebron lacks the skill to do with any version of Westbrook... But Lebron's deck-stacking stole Durant's organic chip, which would've been a goat achievement (winning with Westbrick) and it would've set up Durant's career for success - Durant would've been the goat candidate and goat scorer to challenge MJ, not the fake LeFraud... These are the stakes we're talking about here - Lebron manufactured a fake goat debate by teaming up with his opponents, thereby stealing the debate from guys like Durant that were earning it organically and fairly.. Lebron's deck-stacking stole organic chips from KD, Duncan and Curry (but still mostly lost to all of them).

Hmm, let's stop the Lebron v Kobe talk. Maybe Kobe wasn't even as good as Wade.

If Tim Grover and Juanita Jordan were caught receiving PED's in the mail, then it would be over - everyone would say MJ was juicing and was caught.

But when Lebron's wife and trainer are caught receiving PED's for him - nothing happens - everyone pretends that there's a plausible explanation and Lebron gets off like the cops in the Rodney King beating.

And you guys weren't there - Jordan was literally bored and he wouldn't have retired if he lost to Barkley - he would've trudged forward just like Kobe and Wade after their failed 3-peats in 11' and 14'... But the issue was that Jordan couldn't lose at that point in his career, because he could just average 41 against a far more talented team if needed... Both the Bulls/Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG in the Finals, so every ounce of Jordan's 41 was needed - imagine a cast that needs 41 from the 1st option to win - that's a trash cast.... Pippen made zero threes in the 93' Finals and shot 59% from the line (46.9 TS), so he couldn't handle additional load and had too much already.

Just want to get my facts right. Because LeBron teamed up with Wade. That is what stopped Durant from being in the GOAT conversation?

But let me guess. Durant teaming up with Curry (which stopped LeBron from winning two more titles) is irrelevant in the GOAT discussion.

It doesn't matter that Kobe wasn't 1st option for a dominant champion or dynasty because they still require highly-assisted 1st options, regardless of whether Kobe achieved it or not.

Since possession-tracking began in 1997, every instance of "the best basketball" required highly-assisted 1st options.. This includes 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won over a material stretch of 5+ years (Jordan , Shaq, Duncan, Curry) and 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss per round or less, aka 4 losses max (97' Jordan, 01' Shaq, 02' Shaq, 99' Duncan, 07' Duncan, 17' Durant, 23' Jokic, 24' Tatum).

Since highly-assisted skillsets produce the best basketball, the best highly-assisted players are superior to the best low-assisted players (ball-dominators)... The first ball-dominators in my rankings show up at #11 (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar).

It should also be noted that "highly assisted" sometimes means only 40%, which is about 90% of the players (446 of 509 players this year are above 40%).

OMG, something that happens 90% of the time happened 4 times out of 4. Such an amazing stat!

Durant would've won with baby teammates in 2012 if Lebron didn't team up with veteran champions like Wade.

A title with Westbrook in 2012 would be a goat achievement that spearheaded the rest of Durant's career.... Instead, he lost and Lebron's stacked deck continued while his peers toiled away organically.

No one respects KD's titles because they misperceive Lebron's team-ups and don't view them as something that needed to be overcome.

The media convinced people that it isn't deck-stacking for Lebron to have 3 franchise players on 1 team, while everyone else has normal rosters of 1 franchise player... The media convinced people that it isn't deck-stacking to put the top 3 PER's in the league on 1 team (3 of the top 4).

You guys were simply duped, and KD was the fallguy.