Caesars Poker Room to close for remodeling? mid July
Played today and the word going around is the rooms closing for remodeling. Not sure on the date of closing (heard maybe July 16) or reopening, but one of the dealers did say they offered to give him a job in Laughlin in the meanwhile.
If it does close hopefully it does actually reopen and not just disappear.
According to this:
The poker room will be moving closer to the Forum Shops.
That is dated November 6th.
People that actually know what is happening can't comment.
As I said earlier, why would that be? Why does the future of the poker room need to be kept a secret?
The high limit slots renovation is over. There is no sensible reason for the poker room to not be reopened by now. None. It's not like a brand new room where they need to build out the place. There's an existing room for poker. It would take less than 48 hours to move the slots currently in the room out and move back the poker tables. It would probably take at least two weeks to restaff the room.
This room is toast and has suffered the same fate as Flamingo/Harrah's poker rooms being "temporarily" shut down to borrow staff for the first edition of the WSOP at Horseshoe.
Caesars could have easily moved the high limits slots to another area where regular denom slots were and probably not lose that much revenue. Yet they chose the poker room which was an odd choice when news broke. I mean the poker room wasn't dying a slow death at all and was a popular room by all metrics.
^Planet Hollywood wasn’t an unpopular room either and it hasn’t come back. I think I was more surprised when that room was closed permanently.
As I said earlier, why would that be? Why does the future of the poker room need to be kept a secret?
The high limit slots renovation is over. There is no sensible reason for the poker room to not be reopened by now. None. It's not like a brand new room where they need to build out the place. There's an existing room for poker. It would take less than 48 hours to move the slots currently in the room out and move back the poker tables. It would probably take at least two weeks to restaff th
if they're making way more money now with that space than they were before there's your sensible reason.
"popular" and a good use of space are 2 different things.
if they're making way more money now with that space than they were before there's your sensible reason.
"popular" and a good use of space are 2 different things.
That’s what I was trying to say. If Caesars was planning to reopen the room, it would have reopened the second the high limit slot renovation was finished.
Remember when rumors was it would reopen in November after F1 then after Thanksgiving and it’s still closed.
The longer it’s closed, the harder it will be to restaff the room with former employees especially if apparently you keep sending out emails saying oh we’re reopening soon, probably next month.
That’s another reason I don’t believe the rumor of them moving the room by the Forum Shops. They had 18 tables. Are they going to downsize the room too with the move there? Why would they build out a room when there’s already an area for a poker room?
If the rumors prove true, that just tells you what they think of poker. Remember the last horrible location Planet Hollywood moved the poker room before closing?
if they're making way more money now with that space than they were before there's your sensible reason.
"popular" and a good use of space are 2 different things.
That is indeed how stupid bean counters think. Bright ones have heard of the concept of loss leaders and care about whether the casino is making more money not whether that particular room is making more money(especially when it is cannibalizing money from other slot square footage). My wife does not care; there are slots wherever we go. I care and I am the one driving so if it does not have poker we are not going there. Last game I was at in a Caesar's property all but one of the players had at least one person they brought playing slots or using the spa.
Well... to be honest, corporations are beholden to their share holders...
So then there's that.
That is indeed how stupid bean counters think. Bright ones have heard of the concept of loss leaders and care about whether the casino is making more money not whether that particular room is making more money(especially when it is cannibalizing money from other slot square footage). My wife does not care; there are slots wherever we go. I care and I am the one driving so if it does not have poker we are not going there. Last game I was at in a Caesar's property all but one of the players had at
A loss leader can make perfect sense. But it doesn't mean all loss leaders are profitable.
Neither one of us have the data to know if the poker room overall is a net positive for the casino.
A loss leader can make perfect sense. But it doesn't mean all loss leaders are profitable.
Neither one of us have the data to know if the poker room overall is a net positive for the casino.
Absolutely true.
That said, I think there are some considerations that need to be considered.
1. I believe (and certainly can be wrong about), but I believe that one of the casino rating agencies requires poker for a casino to qualify for a 5 star rating. Caesars is the only casino in the El Dorado Vegas portfolio that would be close to qualifying for 5 stars. It might need to have at least a small poker room.
2. Poker room profitability depends upon internal casino policies. In Vegas at least where drinks are given away for free, the way the cost if drinks are accounted for by the casino greatly influences the profitability of poker. From talking to poker execs, the general policy is that free drinks are internally charged to the poker room when determining poker profit. The question is, at what level are those free drinks internally charged to the poker room? Is it at the retail cost of the drinks (i.e. $12 domestic beers)? Then no poker room will be profitable. Is it at cost (i.e. a dollar or two for a bottle of domestic beer)? Then a lot more rooms are profitable. As with anything the numbers are probably somewhere in between. It depends.
3. Some casinos look at the advantages that come from having poker even if it breaks even. Most players immediately jump to additional spending in the pits by poker players or their spouses. There is some effect but it probably isn't as much as most think. However one real benefit to a casino have a poker room that breaks even is the effect it has on employment. Take a casino like the Venetian or the Wynn. They often have special events that require them to suddenly have dozens more cocktail waitresses (and bartenders) for the special events that are irregularly scheduled (conventios, weddings, celebration, etc). So the casinos will have dozens of temporary cocktail waitresses on call to staff these special events. Obviously most of these employees are looking for more regular work. So the more work the casinos can give these employees, the better. Having a poker room that has occasional poker series (like the Wynn or Venetian) is another event that can fill the calendar and keep the extra people employed. More people means more flexibility for the company.
4. Poker rooms that break even can also provide additional exposure for a casino. I am quite sure that the Wynn benefits from having their name mentioned all of the time in conjunction with the WPT or what not.
5. Poker rooms can also have people stay in the hotel that wouldn't normally stay. Again, even if it is at break even rates (which likely isn't, they still profit somewhat at poker room rates). Again, having the flexibility to increase room occupancy rates during slow times is important. More housekeepers can be kept around at no cost. That helps at busier times.
Again, much of this depends upon how all of this is costed and weighed internally. Most of which no one here has any access to.
Absolutely true.
That said, I think there are some considerations that need to be considered.
1. I believe (and certainly can be wrong about), but I believe that one of the casino rating agencies requires poker for a casino to qualify for a 5 star rating. Caesars is the only casino in the El Dorado Vegas portfolio that would be close to qualifying for 5 stars. It might need to have at least a small poker room.
2. Poker room profitability depends upon internal casino policies. In Vegas at least wher
Thank you for a cogent discussion on the various matters that may be influencing the Caesars/El Dorado decision.
It looks like they removed the "Poker Room" sign from the former poker room area.
Was reported two+ weeks ago here.
Mid Oct: poker signage still up with high limit slots in the space. This is consistent with original announcement.
Early Dec: slots still in space but now poker signage down.
Unless they are changing signage, maybe related to selling WSOP(?), this indicates IF poker is coming back it would be a different location.
Been the focus of discussion here
I'm re-reading "The Professor, The Banker, and The Suicide King" and came across some relevant passages:
Before the current poker boom, the stereotypical view of poker by casino management was that it was an unwelcome distraction or, at best, attracted tightfisted locals who dressed sloppy, complained a lot, and wanted everything for free. Until 2003, the Las Vegas resorts were closing their rooms and the new properties never bothered offering poker.
But during the 1990s, poker in Las Vegas was dying. To some degree, the Mirage's commitment to poker (and the Horseshoe's emergence as the downtown poker destination for the low-stakes locals) pushed out some marginal poker rooms. For the most part, however, the Mirage was dominating a market no one else wanted.
The book then goes on to credit Steve Wynn, Bobby Baldwin, Doug Dalton and Eric Drache for saving poker in Las Vegas by advocating from positions of power. A few key properties (Mirage, Bellagio, Golden Nugget) continued to back poker through the tough times, which was sufficient for poker to survive in LV until the 2003 poker boom. Then all the properties scrambled to build or expand their poker room.
Now that the boom is mostly over and poker has returned to niche status, it feels like the town is regressing to the pre-boom situation where many rooms are closing while a few key properties keep the game alive. Resorts World has added one room to the strip while the Mirage (pre-closure), TI, Flamingo, PH, and now Caesar's have shuttered.
MGM as a corporate entity still seems committed to poker (MGM Grand, Bellagio, Aria). However, it feels like Caesar's has made a strategic decision to get out of poker. When you consider all the room closures and the sale of the WSOP, it feels less like they want to build a shiny new room at their flagship property and more like the first big steps in a long-term exit plan.
Pretty good book, and an interesting insight into a time just before the poker boom.
MGM as a corporate entity still seems committed to poker (MGM Grand, Bellagio, Aria). However, it feels like Caesar's has made a strategic decision to get out of poker. When you consider all the room closures and the sale of the WSOP, it feels less like they want to build a shiny new room at their flagship property and more like the first big steps in a long-term exit plan.
Part of the deal was to keep the WSOP in Las Vegas for the next 20 years, so I would assume that the poker room at Horseshoe will remain at least for that long. It would be a pretty bad look to hold the WSOP in a location where no poker room existed, IMO. Although to be fair, it doesn't seem like the deal said anything about where in Las Vegas it will be held.
You are correct. In my head the 20 year option was more like a first right of refusal than a concrete commitment, but the press releases make it sound fairly concrete. That bodes well for Caesar's keeping the Horseshoe room open indefinitely so they at least have a toehold in poker to keep shilling the WSOP brand while they are affiliated.
On the other hand, the closures of Flamingo, PH, and Harrah's rooms don't bode well for Caesar's Palace. The trend is not encouraging. Personally, I'll be surprised if it's back.
Also just realized that Sahara has closed its room in the last few months. Excalibur and Binion's were COVID casualties.
Looking at the historical context, there's an established pattern of the bean counters itching to replace card rooms with more lucrative slot and pit offerings. The huge boom in the 00s made poker the trendy loss leader and caused operators to lean into the trend, but in the past 10 years we've seen significant contraction and perhaps a return to the natural state of poker struggling for space.
“Attracted tightfisted locals who wanted everything free”
Sums this situation up, on 12/26 Aria has 25 games running (NL/PLO), on what was essentially a slow holiday in Vegas. Its almost impossible to get any of those players away from that room to CP, and with tourney offerings walking distance at Venetian it would be hard to justify remodeling CP poker at this point.
The comment about SouthPoint is interesting, I personally only think it survives because the locals see it as convenient, less reg filled and pay 20-25% rake on dailies for what they see as “home game” type poker, which strip poker players are not likely to care for at any profitable rate.
I'm re-reading "The Professor, The Banker, and The Suicide King" and came across some relevant passages:
The book then goes on to credit Steve Wynn, Bobby Baldwin, Doug Dalton and Eric Drache for saving poker in Las Vegas by advocating from positions of power. A few key properties (Mirage, Bellagio, Golden Nugget) continued to back poker through the tough times, which was sufficient for poker to survive in LV until the 2003 poker boom. Then all the properties scrambled to build or expand their po
MGM closed the Monte Carlo, Luxor, and Excal poker rooms.
“Attracted tightfisted locals who wanted everything free”
Sums this situation up, on 12/26 Aria has 25 games running (NL/PLO), on what was essentially a slow holiday in Vegas. Its almost impossible to get any of those players away from that room to CP, and with tourney offerings walking distance at Venetian it would be hard to justify remodeling CP poker at this point.
The comment about SouthPoint is interesting, I personally only think it survives because the locals see it as convenient, less r
Why would someone playing in an MGM place, earning points in an MGM system, leave that room to go play in a CET room?
Why would someone playing in an MGM place, earning points in an MGM system, leave that room to go play in a CET room?
In this particular example, I’m assuming poker players looking for the best games with less regs and more tourist aren’t prioritizing player points.
Generally as it stands, and as many a trip report has stated, the regs at Aria/Bellagio are far better pound for pound than the avg rock, promo chaser and occassional tourist at the caesars rooms. There was a time when the CP/Horseshoe room traffic was not all promo chasers. This would motivate plenty players to leave a tougher game for a more casual player pool.
I don’t get why anyone would play a CET room in Vegas anymore. Pay $6 rake when literally every room in the city is cheaper.
Plus horseshoe is run like garbage and horrible experience to begin with let alone the higher rake.
Keep Caesar’s closed please.
I don’t get why anyone would play a CET room in Vegas anymore. Pay $6 rake when literally every room in the city is cheaper.
Plus horseshoe is run like garbage and horrible experience to begin with let alone the higher rake.
Keep Caesar’s closed please.
keep it open to keep all the bad players there to not infest the other/better rooms
I'm re-reading "The Professor, The Banker, and The Suicide King" and came across some relevant passages:
The book then goes on to credit Steve Wynn, Bobby Baldwin, Doug Dalton and Eric Drache for saving poker in Las Vegas by advocating from positions of power. A few key properties (Mirage, Bellagio, Golden Nugget) continued to back poker through the tough times, which was sufficient for poker to survive in LV until the 2003 poker boom. Then all the properties scrambled to build or expand their po
Great post. Thank you for this excellent, and depressing, context.
