Single $5 Blind. 3 handed. Was I correct or incorrect?
Hi,
Some context.
3 handed with a single $5 big blind.
CO is rich and slightly drunk. Calls too much and mostly raises strong hands.
BTN is loose thinking player.
Preflop:
CO ($1400, 280bb): Raises to $15
BTN ($4500, 900bb): Calls $15
Hero (BB, $2200, 440bb): Raises to $90
CO calls, BTN calls.
Flop ($270): J♠ 9♥ 4♠
Hero bets $100, CO calls, BTN folds.
Turn ($470): T♦
Hero bets $300, CO calls.
River ($1070): 3♦
Hero bets $910, CO calls.
Would you take the same line I did?
Thanks in advance
8 Replies
What hand do we have?
Your game (insanely deep, short-handed), is not a dynamic I'm familiar with. We also generally ask more detailed questions than, "Did I play this right?" And we don't know what you had.
Nonetheless, to start, when you mention that CO only raises strong hands, does this include opens? I.e., does V usually limp into pots? Or does V make a normal open, but only 3!s or raises with strong hands? Trying to build ranges for 3-handed is challenging when you're not used to it.
Unfortunately, J94 two-tone appears to favor a open-call range vs your BB 3! range. OTOH, V hasn't raised your 1/3 cbet, nor your ~2/3 turn bet on the T. After the flop, I would expect V to have a 1P hand, two overs with 1 spade or 2, some SC and one offs like T8, 87, 65. I would expect 2P, sets, to raise. I think this V, as described, calls QTss, T8ss, etc.
What is H's image? If this V is passive and straighted up on turn, are they expecting H to go b/b/shove, and therefore, why raise?
Lol. Sorry, half asleep after the game.
I had Q♦Q♥.
Pretty much, but he does mix in some 97s type hands every now and then. He never limps. He always opens the same size.
Unfortunately, J94 two-tone appears to favor a open-call range vs your BB 3! range. OTOH, V hasn't raised your 1/3 cbet, nor your ~2/3 turn bet on the T. After the flop, I would expect V to have a 1P hand, two overs with 1 spade or 2, some SC and one offs like T8, 87, 65. I would expect 2P, sets, to raise. I think this V, as described, calls QTss, T8ss, etc.
Thankyou. This is exactly what I was thinking as well. He'd been min raising strong hands on ALL boards (wet or dry), so I pretty much just put him on AJ/KJ and nothing else as I think it's the majority of his range.
What is H's image? If this V is passive and straighted up on turn, are they expecting H to go b/b/shove, and therefore, why raise?
My image was tight passive (aggressive preflop, slightly passive postflop). I don't think V is thinking I will b/b/shove. For example I check called three streets with AA earlier as the preflop aggressor but it was against a different player that had now left the game.. From his perspective b/b/shove might look bluffy because I'd check called a few times
So to be more specific with my questions:
1. Do we cbet OOP into two players this deep?
2. Do we bet turn setting up a river jam this deep?
3. Do we jam river?
All three streets I'm second guessing myself because of how deep we are but I'm confident V will play exactly this way with AJ, KJ, and AK on Flop and Turn.
Okay, so, with QdQh...
PRE - when we're 3 handed, I'd expect ranges to be much wider. QQ is probably ahead of CO's opening range, and definitely ahead of BTN's flatting range. The 3B to $90 looks a tad too large at first, but playing this deep, and being OOP, I guess it's okay.
FLOP - Think I'd prefer to check range from OOP and multi-way in a 3B pot, especially on a fairly wet and dynamic board that will get stabbed a lot. With no spades in our hand, but blocking some straight draws, I'd be looking to check-raise big.
If we're going to c-bet, I'd think a small c-bet would be better, in that it is likely to induce raises from 2P+, and possibly some combo draws, but will otherwise cap our opponents'' ranges when they just flat call. The problem with betting over 2/3 pot is that it allows them to flat call and continue with their strongest combos, and fold the rest.
TURN - We double-block KQ for the nut straight, but the Td brings in a lot of 2P, while giving us the OESD to go with our over-pair. Think I'd prefer to just check now, and let V stab at it, especially after betting huge on the flop, and getting called.
RIVER - When most of the draws brick out, I think I'd prefer to check here, because we've run out of value. Let V stab with all his busted draws. If he bets around 1/2 pot or less, I'd call. If he bets 1/2 to 2/3 pot, I think it's just a crying call. More than 2/3 pot, I'd fold.
When we 3B pre, c-bet >2/3 pot, barrel for 2/3 pot on turn, and then jam 90% pot on the river, and get called, I'm guessing we were beat, but I won't be shocked to learn V called the whole way with something stupid, like TPTK, because you said he's drunk and calls too much.
FLOP - Think I'd prefer to check range from OOP and multi-way in a 3B pot... If we're going to c-bet, I'd think a small c-bet would be better,...
Yeah, I think I agree. My bet was 37% pot. I should go like 10% - 20% pot for the reasons you mentioned, or just check.
My mindset was "get max value from Jx and draws". I think there'll be a large bet if I check, but if I bet small I expect raises to my bet only if he has top of range.
So your line is x/c x/c x/c
I wonder which has the greater ev. The advantage of x/c on the river is getting value from all the bluffs, but he won't necessarily bet all his draws on flop and turn. He may just check back so betting flop and turn seems reasonable, especially since he's been telegraphing his monsters by min clicking. I also like removing a player from the pot so its heads up by the turn. Perhaps the best line against this type of villain is FLOP: bet small ($50, ~20%). TURN: bet small ($75, ~20%) RIVER: x/c. So the pot doesn't get bloated with just one pair.
What do you think?
Yeah, I think I agree. My bet was 37% pot. I should go like 10% - 20% pot for the reasons you mentioned, or just check.
My mindset was "get max value from Jx and draws". I think there'll be a large bet if I check, but if I bet small I expect raises to my bet only if he has top of range.
So your line is x/c x/c x/c
I wonder which has the greater ev. The advantage of x/c on the river is getting value from all the bluffs, but he won't necessarily bet all his draws on flop and turn. He may just check
Opponents tend to make more mistakes against lines with at least one check in the, than they do against lines with no checks in them.
I wouldn't hate going bet-bet-bet if we 3B smaller pre, then bet small on flop and turn, to cap V's range, and then went for some thin value on the river. I hate going big-big-jam with just an over-pair to the board, after we 3B huge pre.
If V wants to raise when we bet small, or bet big when we check, let him. We have the equity to call a raise if we bet small, or call a big bet if we check. If we think he's only raising top of range, and that has our hand beat, then we can make an exploitable fold.
But what is his top of range on the turn, when we double-block KQ? Maybe TT, or 2P+. Against those hands, we're not doing terribly, with an over-pair and our OESD.
When we 3B huge pre, c-bet huge on flop, barrel huge on turn, and then jam river, it's hard for V to call with worse. When we 3B to a more normal size pre, check or c-bet the flop small, and check or barrel the turn small, V gets to the river with too wide a range, with way too much air, and he's going to have to bluff more, if he wants to win.
So, yeah, I think x/c-x/c-x/c is going to be better than bet-bet-jam, when we're OOP, if all our bets are going to be huge. The best hand V can have that might call and that we actually beat is top pair. Whereas if we 3B smaller pre, and check to him on every street, V can blast off with TP, 2nd pair, and all his draws.
All that said - don't overlook the fact I said I'd be looking to check-raise big on the flop if we check and he stabs at it (I should have specified that I'd x/r if he stabs small).
I didn't say it, but if V stabs at it large, and we just flat call on the flop, I might check-raise the turn, when the FDFD misses, but we pick up the OESD, and double-block KQ.
It's close starting the hand at almost 300bb.
But probably good if you think v will pay you off with AJ, KJ, QJ, etc. V may call with these hands but not necessarily bet them. I think checking because the draws missed is generally a mistake because people underbluff when you check, but will notice that draws missed and call you down.
A lot of hands that beat you will have raised flop, turn or 4bet pre. I don't hate checking out of position on the flop or betting smaller on the flop, but with this drunk v who we think we may stack if he had a J, I think deviating from a standard strategy is fine.
It kind of sucks that sometimes we are going to be beat and lose a giant pot deep, but V probably has 12 combos of AJ, maybe 12 combos of KJ if he plays all the offsuit KJ, 1 combo of QJ, more potential QJo. You did say he calls too much and he is loose, drunk. Yes he could have a straight, 2p, set, etc, but I think there is a good chance he would raise those at some point. Thin value maximizes profit, but it's high variance.
It's close starting the hand at almost 300bb.
But probably good if you think v will pay you off with AJ, KJ, QJ, etc. V may call with these hands but not necessarily bet them. I think checking because the draws missed is generally a mistake because people underbluff when you check, but will notice that draws missed and call you down.
A lot of hands that beat you will have raised flop, turn or 4bet pre. I don't hate checking out of position on the flop or betting smaller on the flop, but with t
This is pretty much my thought process in game.
I vaguely counted 2 JTs + 9 sets + 8 KQ = 19 combos that beat me, but a bunch of these will raise at some point so maybe reduce to 10 combos that beat me.
Villain still has:
~16 AK, 8 AQ = 24 combos that call flop and turn but fold river.
~30 TP combos that call every street but don't raise.
That's 10 combos that beat me, and 30 combos I beat that all call a river shove. He is definitely capable of turning AK and AQ into a bluff but I'm not sure if he shoves his Jx on the river.
Putting this into the maths:
1. EV of Betting 910 to Win 1070 assuming Villain calls with worse 3/4 of the time and with better 1/4 of the time.
EV of bet = (fold%×pot)+(call%×[(win%×(pot+villains call)) − (lose%×(our bet)])
EV of bet = (24/64×1070)+(40/64×[(3/4×1980) − (1/4×910)]) = 1187 bb
2. EV of Checking assuming Villain shoves 34 combos and we win 24/34 and he checks back all TP.
EV of check = (check back%×pot) + (AllIn%×[(win%×(pot+villains shove) − (lose%×(our bet)])
EV of check = (30/64×1070) + (34/64×[(24/34×1980) − (10/34×910)]) = 1102 bb
Because this is just a rough estimate of how villain plays, it seems that the ev of check and bet are almost identical. And seeing that there is at least a little contention over what the best line is, I feel more confident that I didn't just burn money, but that I had the right logic - assuming my assessment of him was correct.