Never overplay King Jack

I am raising or folding preflop. Folding if I don’t think raising is profitable.

Flop and turn look fine to me. On the river, I could get behind a min-raise or a call, with the point of calling being that we are more likely to get an overcall than we are to like what happens if we reopen the betting against someone who has bet all 3 streets.

Yeah I felt like pre-flop might have been a mistake. I didn't like raising in this spot because the limpers in this hand are pretty sticky. At least one of them is the type of player who will limp/call dominating hands like AJ, KQ, maybe even AK. My bad image plays a part too - I have showdown some weak hands after raising pre-flop and I don't think I will get much respect in this spot. At the same time, I didn't like folding because it is a soft table. There are no aggressive players behind me and both of the players in the blinds are pretty bad. Fold might still be best though.

I honestly didn't think much about calling river in game, only afterwards. I got caught up in the weak bet sizing from the SB. But just the act of betting here in itself is strong, and there is a player behind me who can be strong. And I agree that BTN can potentially overcall here with a hand like QJ which adds more value to just calling.

I would never fold here. Limp or raise are both good IMO. I know some people don't like limping. I would play as played. That is totally ridiculous to suggest a minraise to a 1/5 pot pot on the river. I would raise to like 100 and probably fold to a 3!.

When you say V1 "tried to" engage you in strat talk, does that mean you shut him down, lol?

I agree with pretty much everything deuceblocker said. Against a different player type, maybe we can make a tight fold OTT? SB should be really strong betting into two people, we have the button behind, and we could be drawing dead to either of them. But against a tilted, stabby fish, I don't think I would fold either.

hate everything. raise or fold pre, raise flop, no idea now just call I guess lol

Welcome to 2025, almost went today for the high hand promo but might have done similar.

I think this is just one of those hands were you shrug a lot.

River feels like we're good often enough for the size but probably not over 50% of the time. Can't see how bluffing raises our equity much, unless maybe it's often AJ/KJ that will fold? Also a small chance V1 has been doing something weird and wants to pile the money in now.

Turn raise or call is meh ... V1 most likely to have a 9, so there's probably some value in getting that to fold or put more money in but the problem is the hands we mostly get value from if we raise in V2's range are QJ/J9 so V1 blocking half that isn't great. We really need V2 to have hands like KQ/J7/J6 or maybe have him fold a chop.

Flop I would 100% call with only one person behind.

Could we raise pre. to maybe get the button and uncap our range, sure.
But I don't hate limping, esp. if we think we'll often not be bluffing at the flop.

Yeah lol. This session was played on New Year’s Day and it wasn’t exactly how I wanted to start my year. Thought 2024’s sun run might be over but the absurd result of this hand makes me think it’s still on (spoiler).

On the river, I feel like I am basically always good against V2 when he bets $20 into $100. I think his hand looks like QJ or J9, maybe AJ. It’s tough though because I don’t think those hands can call a raise in this spot. Maybe he has something dumb like J3? I realize that a good player can recognize a weak two pair is unlikely to be good in this spot, but I don’t think this opponent is capable of folding two pair here.

V1’s range is more of a mystery to me. I think a trap is possible, like Q9 might overcall turn on a rainbow board. I also think something like JT would be reasonable, but I don’t know how I can get more than a $20 river overcall out of that hand.

Glad we are basically on the same page about pre- and flop. Unfortunately I didn’t get the Stupidbanana seal of approval on those streets.

My MO when players try to talk strat with me is that I try to give as minimal a response as possible without being rude. Usually my response is pretty genuine/honest but i just try not to encourage further discussion. I am normally pretty amused by strat talk but I think it’s kinda uncomfortable to talk about how other opponents are playing, even if they are no longer at the table.

Cool, thanks for the feedback. I actually had considered that a flop raise might be a cool play in this spot. I think my hand is basically thick value against SB's range on the flop and that he is very unlikely to fold a worse Jack (as well as OESDs and maybe even good equity second pair hands like 89s or A8s with a bdfd). TBH I am sort of uncomfortable playing later streets after raising flop. Do you go for 3 streets of value on a blank runout after raising flop? Seems really thin. On the flip side, it feels extremely comfortable to just call flop and play in position against a guy who is going to be monkey betting a lot and will likely be using face-up sizings.

depends on the exact runout although there are few outside of like 2/4/5 or board pair where we're going to want to do that as a default. my impetus for raising is we have clear flop raise + turn bet vs his range and you dissuade the button behind you from calling. i think there's pros and cons to both lines and the ev is likely very similar. in my experience people play these spots horrendously as sb - he should be polar and betting somewhat small bc symmetricish ranges and instead they bet way too big / depolar. but in these spots where he probably got 70% of hands or whatever pre, if hes betting all his tp / draws / some middle pairs and random stuff you actually have a ton of equity vs that range. like idk hes probably got j5o here w something like 50% frequency lol

you could also raise flop and check back turn and either bluff catch or bet river if he checks. i dont think raising flop inherently locks us into firing 3

I am stunned at the people saying they think it is OK to limp here. All of the downsides of this hand that are pointing people to limp aren’t downsides of raising, they are downsides of *playing the hand at all*. If we think the upside of playing this hand outweighs the downside, let’s build the pot up!

I think the real downside of raising is that it folds out a lot of the hands that KJ dominates (my opponents, especially those in the blinds, are going to be playing lots of trash JX and KX hands).

My main justification for limping is that I want to enter into as many pots as possible with my opponents at this table, especially in late position. It's a spot where I think I am going to make way better decisions post-flop. I believe I am going to make more money when I flop the best hand and lose less money when I flop the second best hand. I don't think that justifies going totally crazy and calling with trash, but I do think that I can profitably call with some hands that are too weak to raise. So the question would be is KJo too weak to raise? I think it's close.

I am also willing to consider that folding pre is best here, as I mentioned earlier. But the response to this thread, as well as some of the other study I have done into overlimping ranges pre-flop, suggests that this is a fine spot to overlimp.

Here are the CLP charts for iso-raising pre-flop from the CO. I don't think this chart is perfect (a lot of the hands in the "overlimp" category are too weak IMO) but I think it's a decent starting point. According to this chart, KJo would be an ISO facing 2 limps and an overlimp facing more than that.

That's one way of saying, "I get bored so I sometimes make really marginal plays."

Villain with KJ crushed me last session vs my AK suited with 8 5 K two D's on the board turns a j rivers another K he got paid nice f***ing bastard! Sorry I know this has nothing to do with what your post was about but I'm still miffed about it.

Based on your descriptions and HH here are a few things I have to say;

1. You describe yourself as 'tighter and more aggressive' then the players at the table, but you essentially take the most passive line possible...hmmm?
2. You describe yourself as having a bad image based on punts/bluffs and you never take that into consideration at the table.

3. Based on pf I am almost always raising pf prob to 15

4. AP I could easily see myself raising flop to say 30-40. You get to see where you at (should be good a lot of the time on this flop, and if your not V will let you know + allow you to possibly pot control the turn, and then evaluate river and make a decision). Also your description of V as 'someone who stabs alot and is losing' makes me want to raise more!

5. AP on the turn I don't know how you can fold if you called flop AP. Ten is a bad card though - Q9, 97, JT all are ahead of you now.

6. AP on river I don't see how we don't find a raise. I'm prob raising to atleast 50, most likely 65-80. Yes we may value own ourselves a decent amount but we lose to poorly played sets (poorly played as in not getting a ton of value with a stack of about 200), and 97/Q9/AQ(?).

After writing this all up, I am also wondering if V should have just called it a day. Also why are you playing with the max at the 1/2 game in MS, isn't the max 500 - if the answer has to do with I am out of cash, already down, don;t want to go to the ATM, even more reason to call it a day.

I didn’t realize hand was multiway. Still raising flop for reasons stated previously.

As played on river I’m prob never folding to the 20, but would maybe raise to 40-50 and fold to any further action.

RE: buy-in, the max at Mohegan Sun is $400. My typical buy-in is $300. It's just a personal preference. A lot of my study has been centered around online 100bb play, so I usually like to stay shorter unless there is a really good reason to add-on. At this particular table there were a lot of short stacks so it wasn't necessary. I think the only player at or above $400 was V1 who is on my direct left.

I actually did think about quitting this session early, and at one point I took a break to re-gather myself. I have definitely quit sessions before when I am tilted or when I recognize that I am playing really poorly. It didn't get to that point this session, although I did turn down a seat for a decent-looking $2/$5 game because I wasn't playing my best.

Thank for the feedback on the hand. I think your suggestions make sense. Regarding the first two points:

1. There is a reason I said tighter and more aggressive than the rest of the table and not just plain "tight and aggressive" lol. I think it is a good idea to default to taking more aggressive lines at live $1/$2 but I do think that sometimes taking a passive line is warranted. In game, I decided on the passive line here. I didn't post this hand because I thought I played it well though.

2. You don't take your own image into consideration when playing? I usually try to keep it in the back of my mind. I don't let it dictate my play, but it may affect my decision in a close spot. I think image matters to my opponents. Maybe this is a mistake.

The stats on the net payoff of KJ aren't good. Lots of ways it gets you in trouble.

That makes sense and is helpful, thanks. Flop raise is a cool idea and something I will consider in the future.

Anyway, results:

I call KJ the silver medal hand. It too often makes the second best hand when you get to showdown. Just like it did here. You're lucky the villain had an amazing case of the MUBS. Should have raised or folded pf.

I'm not sure how you can see results and decide that's the teaching moment from the hand.
Not that I think it's bad most of the time, but I think you get a lot of the same information from calling (for cheaper) where bad players tend to way overbet the flop for their hand in a limped pot ... but can still have random J8 or whatever sometimes.

I'd say the river is probably the biggest shining light ... As I've thought a few times recently, one of the secret weapons at 1-2 might be absurdly overbluffing/overvaluing rivers. Here you didn't even intend to bluff, just thin value, but V decided you had to have called flop with a gutter because what else would you be raising.
And from population tendencies I kind of understand, everyone calls way too wide before the river and doesn't bluff/thin-value bet rivers enough.

I mean I'm not sure our size is great, but it makes me think raising to 120 on the river might well be better than calling even if we're not sure if we're bluffing or value betting (apparently even with a bad image).

I’m with you on raising the flop. I don’t like it at all. One of the biggest hidden lessons from NLHT&P (I know, it’s a super old book by now) is that when you pay for information, you are often paying more than the information is worth.