Trips against a tricky opponent
$10/10 live game.
Hero $1700
Villian $6000
Hero has history with the V. He is a LAG, and in particular he likes to donk out and attack flop that generally don't favor the pf raiser.
Two limps, Hero raised to $80 with Qd10d at the CO. SB and BB(V) called. Pot size :$260.
Flop 10s 10c 7s. SB checked and V donk out $220. Hero called and SB folded. Pot size: $700.
Turn 8c. Board 10s 10c 7s 8c double flush draw board. V led out again for $400. Hero???
If Hero called the turn bet, pot would became $1500, with only around $1k left in the stack. Needless to say the board became super draw heavy, and there are tons of bad river cards.
Given Hero's read on the V, he definitely like to attack pair boards and low boards against pf raiser. V doesn't necessarily put Hero on trips. Don't think folding against this particular opponent is on the table. Is it a spot to just call and pray for a clear river, which would be very little to none, or is it a spot to jam?
11 Replies
At these stack sizes, and since you're presumably never folding, I'd just shove here.
Easy jam. You want to protect your equity here, and you also want to protect your range by shoving with worse hands than tx; qt is very high in range.
Thanks for the replies. I did end up jamming, but I wanted to check my line.
Given V just completed BB, I didn't put him on A10, as he is a very aggro player and will definitely 3b pf a good portion of the time. I think Vs range contained small to medium pairs, some mid to high suited connectors or non suited connectors.
Hero's perceived image to the V is quite straightforward, so on a 10 10 7 board, I dont think V put Hero on trips that often. I think V probably put Hero on some big pairs, Broadway cards. Don't think a raise on the flop achieves a lot. Once the turn came though, the board became super wet and a lot of draws emerged. Really wanted to deny some equity if V is drawing. Will post out the review shortly after but wondering if shoving is the right play? Folding against a LAG when I essentially flop the top for my range seem way too tight?
I famously don’t know what I’m doing with raising strats in low SPR spots, but this action is so whack all my vibes are telling me you should just react to his bet however you would if you had QQ (whether that’s turbo call or squirm-call) and then snap him off on all but the very very worst rivers. He will sometimes have whatever draw completed but will very often have one of the ones that didn’t.
$80 seems really big pre? Except for that, I'm fine with the hand as played, including the jam.
Interesting hand. Thanks for posting.
Pre flop raise seems too large, unless this is a heavily raked game. Why not $50?
Flop is interesting. If we know V will attack boards like this, I have to ask what sort of hands he does that with? Is it just pure air, that will always fold to a raise, or does he have some hands that might get sticky, like J9, J8, A7, 98, 88, 87, 96, etc? Seems like a lot of those types of hands are just flatting pre out of the BB.
Reason I ask about his range is that I lean towards fast playing here, and raising, unless we know he's super polar and will just fold worse and snap with better. The board isn't really all that dry on the flop, and there are a lot of run-outs we'll hate. Our hand is strong, but unlikely to improve, while fairly likely to get downgraded on future streets.
Slow playing here is what Bart Hanson calls a "negative equity slow play" - allowing an opponent to catch up and make a sneaky / better hand with when he would likely fold to a bet or raise. The preference to call or raise will be heavily dependent on his range and whether or not he'll continue to barrel with worse.
Turn is one of those cards we don't love, if V has 88, J9 and 96 in his flop donking range. Assuming V has a ton of worse hands for value or a lot of high equity bluffs that will make a crying call, I would definitely consider jamming now.
All that said, jamming could be terrible if we know V will continue to barrel off with worse on the river when he takes this line and we just flat call turn. If we call, I guess we'll have to call off on most, if not all rivers, unless the river brings in both a flush and straight draw, but doesn't pair the board. Even then, if we know V is capable, we may still have to call on a bad run-out.
The thing about calling is that V doesn't know we flopped trips. We could be on a draw, and V might slow down and check worse value on the river, giving us a chance to "bluff" at it. It's not impossible for him to have worse Tx or 98 that intends to bluff catch.
I dunno. My tendency is to not test the poker gods' patience by slow playing made but vulnerable hands, instead preferring to fast play, but I may be losing value by not letting V's like this continue to blast off. If I was very confident in my read, that would guide my decision towards raise or call.
Thanks for all the advices and analysis. Learnt a lot from picking the brains of the great poker minds in this forum.
The reveal is, I did end up shoving and get snapped off by V's pocket 8s that turned a boat. Obviously I don't want to be too result oriented, but I did wonder if I could have manage to lose less.
I opt against raising on the flop because I do play with V quite a bit, and he knows I am not likely to raise him with an overpair facing a donk on a paired board. He is well balanced in terms of his donking range, but generally he like to lead out with hands with some showdown value or good drawing equity. I know V is probably not putting me on a hand as good as trips, so I figured if I am calling with all my overpairs, I should be consistent with my line when I flop big. It would be easy for V to get away with hands like 78, 79, pocket pairs if I raised him straight away, but he might try to 'bluff' or deny equity on the turn if he assume my range is not strong enough to withstand more heat, or if I am just floating him on the flop with ace highs.
Obviously turn 8 completed some draws, and in this instance he did turn a boat. When the board became double flush draws, and he continued his aggression on the turn, it kind of put me to a decision where if I jam on the turn, I would lose the opportunity of him either bluffing off the river or overplaying some hands. However, there are so many straighting or flush completing cards that can come up on the river, which will put me in a guessing game of which draws did he actually complete or just trying to push me around with a scare card. Figured on the off chance that he also has 10x, or a hand that turned more equity like 9s, 89, 5s6s etc, he might be more inclined to call now, putting me on overpairs.
I appreciate the HH and follow up post, but that’s a lot of analysis for someone who’s clearly just clicking buttons until they stumbled dick first into a two outer to a stone-cold cooler.
I think shove is fine unblocking FDs and given you had only $1, 300 behind although V's line is weird donking on paired board which is typically better for initial raiser. Wonder what he had lol
Blinds: $10/10
Hero: CO (Q♦️ 10♦️)
Villains: UTG, UTG1, SB, BB
Preflop ($20):
limp, limp, raise $80, call, call
Flop ($260): 10♠️ 10♣️ 7♠️
check, bet $220, call
Turn ($700): 10♠️ 10♣️ 7♠️ 8♣️
bet $400, all-in $1300
Total pot: $2400
Generated by pokerhandhistory.com
Thanks for all the advices and analysis. Learnt a lot from picking the brains of the great poker minds in this forum.
The reveal is, I did end up shoving and get snapped off by V's pocket 8s that turned a boat. Obviously I don't want to be too result oriented, but I did wonder if I could have manage to lose less.
I opt against raising on the flop because I do play with V quite a bit, and he knows I am not likely to raise him with an overpair facing a donk on a paired board. He is well balanced in
Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but if V is frequently donking out on flops with a balanced range of showdown value and good draws, I think we should be raising more with our thick but vulnerable value, rather than just calling, and calling more with our nutted hands, thin value that can improve, draws, and some air. My reasoning is that if we just flat call with vulnerable value, then we will be playing a guessing game on later streets, and likely either over folding or over calling, plus occasionally getting check raised.
If we raise with thick value, we punish him for donking with a balanced range, forcing him to decide what to do with his non nutted hands and draws. If he 3B's with his nutted hands, he'll be playing face up.
The times when we do just call, he won't know if we have thin value, a draw that comes in on a later street, or air that will make an attempt to steal the pot if he slows down.
By raising sometimes, rather than always calling, we put the pressure back on him to figure out an optimal response, which is hard to do when he's OOP. Like, what would he do with 77 here? Donk-3B, or donk-call, and then just check turn, or donk again? What does he do with 88 if we raise flop? Fold? If he calls, what does he do on a turn brick?
I think we need to push back on this guy, and let him know there will be consequences for his shenanigans.
Thanks for all the advices and analysis. Learnt a lot from picking the brains of the great poker minds in this forum.
The reveal is, I did end up shoving and get snapped off by V's pocket 8s that turned a boat. Obviously I don't want to be too result oriented, but I did wonder if I could have manage to lose less.
I opt against raising on the flop because I do play with V quite a bit, and he knows I am not likely to raise him with an overpair facing a donk on a paired board. He is well balanced in
You are overthinking it. Turned sets are the classic hand players are supposed to go broke against. Hero's line is printing against villain range, and flop call would have been the correct line if you saw his actual hand in real time.
Villain donk is spewy, Hero can comfortably call all overpairs to the board and fold ax/kx, there are still 2 other opponents.