Bobby's Breakroom - for gaming employee chatter + YTF appreciation. See restrictions in Post #1

mod: ok, it's been a few days, and I appreciate all the constructive feedback from the community.

The majority of feedback seems to be OK with going forward with the proposed change, so I will make some edits to the OP, and we'll go forward with a new policy that only cardroom employees or other home game dealers (when appropriate to the topic) can post in this thread. For the moment we'll also allow posts from non-employees asking for advice about becoming an employee/dealer.

To date I have been pretty laid back about enforcing this and trying to determine who is and isn't an employee. Possibly I may get a little more aggressive about it going forward (e.g. temporarily deleting posts and sending PMs to confirm, asking for some sort of proof in some cases), but I don't necessarily want to promise it, I don't really have a lot of time to be the employee police. But if you have to really stretch to make the case that you should be able to post here, or if you're not comfortable explaining your role as a cardroom employee here publicly, then that is probably an indication that you shouldn't post here. I really hope it doesn't ever come to this, but if needed the mod team will make any final determinations needed and everyone will have to live with it.

re: moderation, I will have a fairly light hand when people violate this rule (either moving or deleting these posts without additional comment or explanatory PMs), but repeat offenders may get something a little more formal or get stacking penalties. Please use the report post functionality if you suspect a post/poster of being in violation of the thread restrictions, and we'll have a look when we can.

I will also move the posts from the past few days talking about the proposed change to their own thread, here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/ca...

To our employee friends - a concern from customers is that you try to be cognizant about posting things like ruling questions that might benefit from a wider audience response in other threads where that feedback is possible and welcomed, rather than here, and use this thread mainly for non-ruling dealer bullshitting. Of course, the decision is up to you in the end. If you don't want customer feedback about something, posting here is fine.

Thanks again to the community.

mod: as an aside, when the name of this thread was changed to appreciate YTF, the intention was for RR, one of the former mods who also worked with YTF, to write up a blurb about him for inclusion. Unfortunately that never quite happened for a variety of personal reasons.

If any of you knew him well enough to want to write something up, I'd be pleased to include it in the OP. (I noticed I still had a placeholder there when I was editing it earlier today.) Feel free to post it here or PM it to me.

And thanks for the note, JZ44. Very nice to hear.

It blows my mind that YTF's passing was over five years ago now. I can only imagine the stories he would have been able to share if he was around during the COVID days.

What doesn't blow my mind at all is that he still has the most posts ITT.

Dinesh. Thanks for the hard work from you and the mod team, as always.

To help prevent confusion and facilitate discussion, I would propose two small things for the continued health of this thread.

1. Removing this line I wrote fourteen years ago entirely from the OP:

2. Renaming this thread to be very straightforward and simple. I would suggest "Cardroom Employees Only - Bobby's Breakroom"

Every once in awhile I think about YTF and another friend of mine that also passed away just before COVID hit and wonder if they just were smart enough to check out at the right time.

I left a graveyard shift house job a while back due to burnout. I recently learned that my replacement burned out almost immediately and now the entire shift is being eliminated partly due to the chaos he caused. I don't know if they're going to start closing the room early (which they did sometimes anyway if they didn't have enough pit managers that day) or add early/late start times to morning and swing.

I've been on every shift possible, which, I suppose, all of us can say if we've been in the business long enough.

The last time around I was getting home from work at 7 or 8 AM most mornings and calling myself lucky if I got 4 hours of sleep during the day before my next shift. I'd collapse when I got home, wake up after a few hours, and spend the rest of the day in bed, miserable that I wasn't falling back to sleep until it was time to get ready for work that night.

Now I've been on the early swing shift for the last 18 months or so and I'm usually home around midnight and asleep by 1 AM. I'm probably making less in tips but I wouldn't change it for the world.

I don't think outsiders realize how stressful being employed in poker can be.

Don't get me wrong, at it's most basic, poker is super easy. I am pretty sure that they could teach a monkey to be 95% effective to be a poker dealer. It really isn't that hard.

Where the stress comes from is that money is involved. One simple mistake can cost people thousands.

I often try to describe it to people who work outside the industry as the equivalent of taking a 5th grade math test but doing it for 8 hours and you need to get 100% and any single error could result in someone losing a lot of money. The math is all simple. Stupidly Easy. However if you make one simple mistake, it can come back to bite you. Lose focus for one second? You can look bad. Read a bet wrong? Conflict. Hear something wrong? Conflict. Make a simple mistake on a count? Conflict.

Don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for players who have hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars at stake with a person who is paid minimum wage controlling the action. But dealing is one of those professions that is stupid easy, until it isn't and the simplest mistakes can matter a lot.

Flooring is no different. 99% percent of a floorperson's time is dealing with basic customer service. Basic rulings, telling players where to go, etc. Then all of a sudden stuff goes wrong and you are responsible (even if you had nothing to do with it).

For understandable reasons, gaming rules can be burdensome and onerous. There are federal regulations that can have a huge impact on a floorperson's career (and life) despite them having little control.

Throw in bad management or a bad scheduler and it can escalate.

Being on the house side of the poker environment is one of the easiest jobs in the world, but also one of the most stressful. It is imppossible to describe.

Yeah you have to have people on Graveyard that like being on Grave. If you don't, it's just a matter of time. I personally hated it when I had to do it. Lasted about 6 months and it was misery the entire time.

I didn't get into dealing until I was in my 30s. Even at tha,t advanced age, graveyard wasn't a huge problem for me when I first broke in. Some days, the drive home would be a real chore, but for the most part I just adapted.

Fast forward 10 years later, and I just couldn't get decent sleep during the work-week and my health definitely began to suffer. When I got home at the end of the week, I'd get home at 9 AM and would sleep until Noon. Then I'd wake up, and make myself get out of bed and do stuff. I'd usually end up back in bed around 8 PM and would sleep until about 9 AM. And then I'd be a night-time sleeper for the remainder of the weekend.

On my Monday, I'd wake up around 9 AM, knowing I had to be at work at 9 PM, and would go back to sleep around 3 or 4 PM, desperately hoping that I'd fall asleep for a 2 hour nap before my week began. Sometimes it would happen, other times I'd fail.

Graveyard shift is for kids in their 20s or for parents who have a partner who works during the day time and have it worked out where one parent is always home with the kids. Or for psychos.

I was on graveyard again a few years ago when my wife changed careers and had to do grave shift. Thought it would be no problem because I had done it before. Nope.
Being in my 50s now, I could never switch sleep times, it killed me to do that. That meant my days off were spent watching TV at 4am instead of living a real life like a proper day-walker.
Back on days now, four 10hr days. I can't imagine going back to grave. Have passed on management opportunities because I don't want to stay there for years until seniority gets me back to a reasonable time.

I actually thrived with the late hours even at my advanced age. My brain is wired for late nights.

It was the players and lack of support from management that killed me. Locked in, dealing to the same trouble makers every night. Nobody was ever even given a real warning for bad behavior. Falling asleep at the table? The floor would come over once and say "hey, wake up!" then walk away. I would just hope they fell fully asleep so I could deal them out.

Even some of the players I liked were a problem because I knew they couldn't afford to be there. If I got them banned they would just go to home games and dig their hole faster thanks to easy credit.

Often we had no poker pit boss so it would be some random floor game supervisor who knew nothing about poker. Some knew to defer to my judgment, others just made a random ruling and stuck with it.

It got to the point where I dreaded going in every night.

That was a major problem for me when I was doing GY. It was in a new room that had opened and so it was a gathering point for scumbags that had been banned from another room. They had a new place to act like ****wits.

I never understood why someone would become a floorperson rather than deal. I mean, I completely understand in order to become more in poker you need to go through the floorperson level. It is paying your dues. I get that and I sort of admire it. That said, it is horrible work. Terrible. More often than not, floorpeople work for wages that are at best comparable to dealing. They deal with breuracratic BS. Plus you can be be the world's best floorperson and it might not matter.

If the money was roughly apples to apples I'd rather just floor full-time.

I understand that at some level, but......

In most cases it isn't apples to apples. Most dealers (especially good ones) make more than a lower level floor. That is obviously a generalization that can have many exceptions.

Plus dealing allows many other benefits. Being able to EO is huge to many. Generally flooring doesn't allow for that. Dealing is also generally less stressful.

All of that said, and I mean this genuinely, flooring is generally trial by fire. A person steps back in order to have the opportunity to step forward. I really wish there is a better path forward for those who seek higher places in the poker community. I really do. Great poker management is lacking unfortunately. So I hope you succeed.

I worked in one room where 12% of the dealer's toke box went to the host and the floors, with the floors getting the majority of that cut. The result was that the floors made about the same as the dealers. It was near impossible to get a floor job in that room.

The room I'm in now, the floors make approximately 3x what the dealers make, except the floors make no tips, while the dealers obviously do get tips. The result is that the dealers all make more than the floors, and in less time, and with the ability to EO. The dual rate floors make about 2x as much as the dealers, again without tips. When I have a floor shift (which probably works out to about once per month) I invariably spend the day more relaxed, feeling like I'm helping the room run better, and of course the job is way easier on my back, neck, and shoulders.

I've had other jobs in other industries that are way more stressful than being a floorperson in a poker room. And none of those jobs was in a hospital, police station, fire station, or one of the hundreds (thousands?) of other careers that can significantly affect another person's life based on whether you did your job well.

Back in the day it used to be nearly all dealer positions were part-time which meant no benefits.
The way to become full-time - and attain the security and benefits afforded full-time employees was to take that "demotion."

I did it while already a full-time dealer and became a dual-rate.
While it was good from an educational and resume standpoint, it was terrible in every other way.
I would not have done it had I knew how things would go.

Although that is looking solely at how things went at that particular employer as a direct result of my move.

Big picture? I got a very PT dealer job to offset the financial hit I took when I floored; I am still there eleven years later.
I probably don't get terminated over bullshit after many stressful months of dealing with terrible leadership.
If I remained a dealer I never would have Forrest Gump-ed my way into a full-time job in the online casino world that I have been at for ten years.
I also would have been a poker dealer when COVID hit which would have been devastating financially.
To make things even worse, the poker room was shut down forever before COVID even ended; employees got the news on a Zoom call.

So it led to the best possible outcome for me, but in a vacuum, it was a mistake.

Covid also led to a long term improvement in my working situation as well, though wouldn't have guessed it at the time. Strange the butterfly effect.

I don't think I would ever floor without aspirations to go higher into management. For me personally (and I fully recognize everyone is different) flooring would only be a step to higher levels.

So I do hope you become management. Also, to be honest, I think you would be good at it. I like your attitude here and frankly poker needs better management in general. As a random internet poster, I say go for it. You have my random internet vote.

A few stories about flooring and dealing. These are not meant to influence anyone in any particular direction, but just to help people think. Everyone is different and what is fine for one is different for another. Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough is the best flavor of ice cream, no argument, but some deranged people might think different.

Anyway...

I enjoy dealing. Period. I really like watching the action. I spend more time thinking about what players have than anything else. In fact 90+% of the time when I make a mistake, it is because I am thinking more about the action than doing my job. You will never catch me distracted watching a football game on TV. If I am distracted it is because I was thinking about the action in the last hand.

Also, from a physical standpoint, I find poker easy. Granted I deal far less than full time hours (not even close), and I have worked in very many physical jobs in my life. I have owned a low voltage company that sometimes required me to help the actual workers out. Every now and then, I would spend an 8 hour day on a ladder with my arms raised above my head the while time. Not every day, or even every week, but often enough to know what real hard work was. I have also managed a factory where we received shipments of perishable goods. If the truck got there late or people had called off and there was an emergency I helped unload a 40' truck of perishable goods. This consisted of lifting 50 pound bags and boxes by hand. The whole truck. Again, not my regular job, but more often than I would ever want. To me, dealing is a breeze. It is easy and can be done in my sleep. Unless I am working a series with 14 hour days, I never notice it physically. I understand other feeling it though.

That said, I know many long time dealers who have carpel tunnel issues, or worse, back issues. Dealing can be brutal physically in very subtle ways. I will never minimize dealer physical issues. It can be brutal. It hasn't been a problem for me yet and I enjoy it, but I understand.

For me, dealing can be more mentally stressful than physical. Don't get me wrong, usually (90% of the time) dealing is mentally easy. It doesn't mentally bother me. My problem is that I recognize that players are playing with real life money and it REALLY matters to them. So if I am having a subpar day, I will let it get to me. If I make a mistake because I am tired, I take it to heart and try to do better, but I also know that I am tired. So stress increases. I get stressed when I am tired. My problem. Others might not feel the same.

There is one dealer I used to work with who was my hero. He was a long time dealer who probably dealt to Doyle and Slim in Texas in the early 70s. He was ancient. He also did not give a f#$k. He would call a floorman in a second. Even if it was his mistake, call a floorman. It didn't matter. A customer got angry for any reason, he called a floorman. It did not matter to him, anything that was going to cause a problem for him, he called a floorman. He recognized that the moment he called and floorman it was no longer his problem, it was the floorman's problem. I am grateful to him for that lesson which he gave me very, very early in my career. I probably call floorpeople more than most dealers, especially those that consider themselves good dealers. However, I also think most dealers do not call floorpeople enough. Too many fix things on their own without realizing it isn't their job to fix things. Floorpeople should. For one, players are more likely to trust someone in a suit than a dealer, for two the floor should be made aware of any problem in case it comes up again.

As a dealer, once you tell a floor it is literally not your problem. No matter what. Period. That can be a stress relief.

As for flooring, I think that it is easier than dealing 95%+ of the time. Mostly floor people walk around, shoot the **** with players about football games or other stupid ****. Easy.

However it is that last little bit that can be way worse. WAY WORSE.

As a dealer I experienced two players get angry and exchange dirty words to each other. Nothing that anyone who has ever played poker for 20 years hasn't seen before. Really bad, but not unique. Stuff happens in poker. Money is on the line. In this instance, the floor immediately called security and had one of the players thrown out. Afterwards, I talked to the floor because I naively thought they could be calmed down. He explained that the reason he had the player thrown out was that he had crossed a personal line. He had mildly threatened violence against the other player. I say mildly not to minimize it, but just to reinforce that what he said was stuff that two men (it is always men) occasionally say to each other when things are heated. Wrong? Absolutely. Extraordinary? Unfortunately not.

His reasoning was that he will give people arguing every benefit of the doubt until they threaten violence against another no matter how mild. He later acknowledged that he though it was mild and would likely lead to nothing, but his reasoning was that he didn't want to be morally responsible if someone got beat up (or died) later after there were threats. I never thought about it that way and I greatly respected it. It made me realize I didn't want to make those moral decisions.

There is also a story about a floorman where I currently work. I never met him (different shift), but he was well regarded by many. One night, two young Asians walk in (boyfriend/girlfriend). Only the male was going to play (girlfriend was going to watch). He carded the boyfriend. Boyfriend gives him an ID. It turns out it was a fake ID. Furthermore, later that night when it slows down and there are open seats, the girlfriend decides to play. She just moves to an empty seat and buys in. She plays and loses a crapton of money. Like maybe $1000. It turns out that he was 19 with a fake ID and she was 18 with nothing. Her parents got pissed and raised a stink with the casino.

The casino reviewed tape and the floor was fired. He accepted a fake ID that was probably shaky at best and then the girl was never checked.

I am not saying he wasn't wrong. He screwed up. That said, I am 100% sure that he was busy and probably distracted with dealing with other stuff.

Obviously a rare occurrence, and something that could happen to anyone. That said, that is the life of a floorperson. 99% of the job is easy. Walk around, sit people, make change, chat with people. Nothing hard. But on those rare occasions, **** matters and you are in charge. It is easy to lulled to sleep, but it can bite you at any time.

Earlier in my life I would have loved that. Chat, laugh, watch sports. Great. Even the craziness would have energized me. I liked making tough calls and being in charge. All great.

Now. I do not want to deal with that crap. I like yelling for floor and washing my hands of stuff.

TDLR; everyone is different and has different goals, desires, and needs. There is no right path, you just need to be aware of the benefits/downfalls of the path you are on.

Yeah I forgot to include the people who become floors simply because they're lazy, or would rather spend most of their time hanging out socializing. There's one dealer in particular at my old job who doesn't seem interested in becoming a good dealer, but she would probably be a good floor. And it might even pay more since she doesn't get tipped a lot.

For me it would mostly be a contingency plan. I don't know if my wrists will hold up until I'm ready to retire. I'm tempted to jump on the first good opportunity so I can find out if I like it and at least have it on my resume.

Working graveyard does take a special breed, it is not for everyone. Personally I have always been a night person, in fact in the four plus years I had a "regular 9-5" job I had trouble waking up in the mornings, never could get use to it. I came back into the poker world a few months ago and one of the main reasons was that I walked into full-time dual rate and I was going to end up on graveyard.

Also as far as flooring, once I hit my 90 days in the next few weeks I am basically being "fast-tracked" into a full time floor supervisor role. They opened the spot last year and have only had one person hired for it, who did not make it past his 90 probation period. The reasons I am flooring fulltime is because one, I did not really want to get back into dealing but only did so because it was full-time and graveyard. Two I was burned out when the room I worked in never re-opened after Covid and pretty much anywhere I was going to go was going to be less money. Three I have neck and back injuries that have lingered for many years and really do not have the stamina to keep dealing for much longer.

Its less money than dealing of course but still more than I was making at the jobs I had in-between casino stints but long term picture, I am only a year of floor supervisor experience away from qualifying for a shift manager spot and from what I understand there will likely be two openings sometime by early 2026 with one person retiring and one possibly leaving to go be a room manager a few states away this summer.