Top set and a lot of money going into the pot
$2/$5 at Mohegan Sun in CT on a Sunday afternoon.
This is an exceptionally good table. Two players to my left is a VIP player, a wild younger guy who is VPIPing 100% of hands and making big mistakes post flop. In between us (on Hero's direct left) is another loose fish.
Hero is 30s WG. I am one of the tighter players at the table. I am one of the only players who has been 3betting (even though the VIP player has been open raising hands like 24o). $850 stack.
UTG is MAWG reg. ABC/TAG style. The hand before this one, he got stacked in a 3BP with AA vs K4s on K64. Just rebought for $1000. I think he is tilted. His normal open is to $20.
UTG1 is MAWG reg. Seems like a decent player. I recognize him but don't know his game. $1000 stack.
UTG2 is MAAG. I don't know much about him but I have seen him around before and I don't think he is a big losing player. $850 stack.
LJ is MAAG. Unknown to me. Has been losing but isn't playing particularly loose. $300 stack.
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Hero is dealt TsTh
UTG angrily opens to $25. UTG1 calls. UTG2 calls. LJ calls. Hero? Hero calls to keep in the aforementioned fish behind. CO calls. BTN calls. Blinds fold.
Flop: Tc8c7d (Pot: $175).
UTG checks. UTG1 bets $80. UTG2 is in the tank when LJ moves All-in out of turn for $280. The dealer corrects him and action is back on UTG2. UTG2 calls $80 anyway. LJ moves All-in for $280.
Hero? Cold-call $280 with many players behind? Or re-jam for $825? Surely not fold.
Should I squeeze pre here despite the table dynamics?
As long as UTG has a standard opening range, I’d be 3betting pre for sure.
As played I’d smooth call the shove and see what other players we can get in there
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UTG has a standard opening range I would say. He sized up from $20 to $25 in this hand, but I don't know how significant that is. He might occasionally open limp, but I think he has only open raised at this table.
Definitely willing to concede I made a mistake pre-flop here. Earlier in the session I had turned down some 3bet spots to get involved with the players on my left. Thought it made since in this spot, especially with a tighter player opening big UTG. I may have taken it too far though.
If 3betting, I guess something like $150? That would be 3X plus 1X for each caller. Then fold if UTG jams?
I wonder if the VIP on the BN cold-calls 3bets since he's vpiping 100%. If so, then I'd favour a 3bet with TT. Also the fact that UTG is tilted is another reason for 3betting, especially if you believe the VIP will still cold-call.
As played, flat the $280 AI and easy call if UTG1 or UG2 reshove. Both UTG1 and UTG2 can have 88 and 77 as well as J9s, even some 87s, 98s, 97s. You'll be getting at least 4:1 if either reshoves (depending on the action of CO, BN and UTG and UTG2).
Preflop is fine, you want the 2 behind you to call.
Call now.
I wonder if the VIP on the BN cold-calls 3bets since he's vpiping 100%. If so, then I'd favour a 3bet with TT. Also the fact that UTG is tilted is another reason for 3betting, especially if you believe the VIP will still cold-call.
As played, flat the $280 AI and easy call if UTG1 or UG2 reshove. Both UTG1 and UTG2 can have 88 and 77 as well as J9s, even some 87s, 98s, 97s. You'll be getting at least 4:1 if either reshoves (depending on the action of CO, BN and UTG and UTG2).
Yeah interesting point that I didn't consider. He hasn't straight up cold-called a 3bet yet, but I don't know that he has had the opportunity. Previously he limped for $5 and then cold-called a 3bet for $125, so it can't be ruled out that he would cold-call a big squeeze in this spot.
Earlier this session, I 3bet squeezed two of his opens and he laughed and folded both times (one hand got to showdown and I had AQo). In another hand, he limped for $5, another player raised to $30, I squeezed from the blinds, and the VIP tanked for a while before limp-folding.
Yeah interesting point that I didn't consider. He hasn't straight up cold-called a 3bet yet, but I don't know that he has had the opportunity. Previously he limped for $5 and then cold-called a 3bet for $125, so it can't be ruled out that he would cold-call a big squeeze in this spot.
Earlier this session, I 3bet squeezed two of his opens and he laughed and folded both times (one hand got to showdown and I had AQo). In another hand, he limped for $5, another player raised to $30, I squeezed from
Some relevant info. Given he's vpiping 100%, he'll probably still cold-call with say 30% (depending perhaps on your 3bet size), so leaves you in decent shape even OOP. Plus you don't mind if he folds all his trash Ax and Kx. If UTG was very narrow, there's a much stronger case for not 3betting.
i think raise is better than call. im trying to decide if making it like 480 is better than jam.
all i really see happening if you call is everyone gets to draw getting basically the right price. given you have 2 t's and its not even the pfr betting multiways im less worried about scaring off worse made hands as i just dont see that many that exist that arent going to go with it anyways, maybe bottom 2 or something
i think small raise is better having thought about it
im indifferent to pre i think both are good options
Set mining pre seems ok given positions. I would jam flop.
I would jam flop. This is a really wet board with middle connected cards and a 2-flush. You don't want them to draw cheaply. I would want to get the money in while you are ahead and the favorite or at least 35% against a made straight. Make them fold or get allin behind. If you isolate with dead money, it isn't that terrible a result.
just jam you really think theres a difference in calling ranges between calling a minraise vs a jam? at least you if you jam you dont have to put half your stack in and then leave rest for guesswork on weird turn cards.
I think ship is fine, UTG+2 is presumably capped here, and Hero would also just ship all his j9 hands anyway. Villain might still stack off with a worse set but calling allows villain to play his whole range easily.
Agree with other posters that its not too important whether you call vs. raise in this spot pre-flop.
Flat pre makes sense. Flatting brings in all the worse hands / players. 3! seems fine too, if it's possible at your table to isolate and play heads up.
There's like $615 in the pot on the flop when the action gets to you. If you jam $825 knowing you're getting called by exactly J9, you've still got pretty much got direct odds for this to be a break even play. But the thing is, you're getting called by a load of worse hands like Ac7c, 87, T8, T9, 98, flush draws etc. So there's no folding here. It's just if you want to bring in as many worse hands as possible, which seems attractive.
So I like just flat calling, but jamming looks good too.
Preflop seems like a mandatory squeeze to me.
There are already 4 players in the pot before you, no need to invite more people, rather the opposite.
I mean, in a 7-8 ways pot, you are essentially playing bingo, not poker, and the the fact that 1 or 2 fishes may make big mistakes doesn't compensate the loss of skills edge which you should have in a "normal" pot. On top of that, you are oop with respect to the fishes, so capitalizing on their mistakes will be even harder.
As played, flop is whatever: I'd probably shove, but that's just me.
I think ship is fine, UTG+2 is presumably capped here, and Hero would also just ship all his j9 hands anyway. Villain might still stack off with a worse set but calling allows villain to play his whole range easily.
Agree with other posters that its not too important whether you call vs. raise in this spot pre-flop.
I did not think about UTG2's range much in game (another mistake from me), but I think this is a bad read on your end. UTG2 has free information that LJ is planning on shoving his short stack when it is his turn, which re-opens action for UTG1 who has made a sizeable bet into the entire table. I think when UTG2 decides to put any money into the pot despite this information, it actually means that he is very strong.
Preflop seems like a mandatory squeeze to me.
There are already 4 players in the pot before you, no need to invite more people, rather the opposite.
I mean, in a 7-8 ways pot, you are essentially playing bingo, not poker, and the the fact that 1 or 2 fishes may make big mistakes doesn't compensate the loss of skills edge which you should have in a "normal" pot. On top of that, you are oop with respect to the fishes, so capitalizing on their mistakes will be even harder.
As played, flop is whateve
Yeah, I am being convinced by this thread that 3bet pre is the correct play here. I don't think flatting is bad (clearly still a winning play in this line-up), but it is not the best play. When there is already $100 in the pot, there is just a huge incentive for me to win pre-flop.
When I saw UTG open big, I already decided this was a "just call" spot and failed to adjust after the parade of dead money. Acting on auto pilot and not properly thinking through every action is a big leak of mine.
100bb
Robot opens EP (for 2.25x)
Robot in HJ with TT responds by ...
No rake: calling 80% / 3bet 20%.
Rake: folding 15% / calling 60% / 3bet 25%
There's also the fact that V can be tilted, which doesn't mean we want to be more linear in our 3bets ... esp. if we are auto folding to 4bets.
Would generally assume V is using a similar range to open to 25 instead of 20, but going bigger because of the VIP playing any2.
On flop I think generally call, but I don't mind shoving at least sometimes. When calling some turns will be annoying, esp. if UTG2 wants to pile money into a dry side pot.
just jam you really think theres a difference in calling ranges between calling a minraise vs a jam? at least you if you jam you dont have to put half your stack in and then leave rest for guesswork on weird turn cards.
there is no guess work, you are all in on all of them except maybe board pairs (you are getting better than direct odds to boat)
i think its sort of obvious they call wider vs 480 than 850
I'm fine either way pre. On the flop I jam. Just jam; they are most likely calling with their draws, anyway, and if someone has J9 we have outs. So many turns we don't want to see, and I'd hate to get bet off the best hand or have to call drawing to only a few outs -- I'd much rather just gii good and make them chase.
Pre is a call pure at Mohegan, people ITT don't know. Wouldn't 3b against a $15 open either. All-in now.
