solver output I don't understand

solver output I don't understand

4bet pot COvsBTN, flop 9s7h3c

Facing a 1/4 cbet, the solver always float KJ spade but mainly fold KQ spade. It says KQs EV is almost 0.

I wonder if I did a mistake somewhere, or else what is the logical explanation. fwiw I use GTOwizard simple/NL50 preflop ranges.

Thanks for any input!





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12 January 2025 at 10:52 PM
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6 Replies



Well, it is very hard to play like a solver 100%. The solver knows the perfect exploitative strategy on both sides, and after so many iterations, it found that KsQs doesn't make money by calling.

A few things that stick out to me: With KQs you are up against a lot of AK and AQo in addition to QQ, KK, AA and are thus very dominated. With KJs there is a fair amount of AQo in his range that you aren't dominated against, so you are more likely to turn a clean out, he is likely to have to give up, so you are a little more likely to actually make the best hand, and a little more likely to bluff him off the beat hand. Also, you can turn a T which will make you double gutted to an 8 or Q. With KQs at best you can turn a gutter. Both hands can turn pretty good flush draws though. Basically, they are both pretty trash, but KsJs is just slightly better trash. CO strategy has just enough weak hands/ give ups on later streets and we have just enough equity and playability to make what is probably a barely profitable call with KJ, while KQs is just barely losing.


Best cheat code i read to 'solve' solver weird plays is: 'it's always blockers'.

So my lazy 1 min response if I noticed this would be something like: 'KQ blocks too much QQ'. Which is what we want oop to have on any A or K turn.


What makes me confused is CO has AQo & AJo in his range, AJo just a little bit less, as well as QQ & JJ. So in terms of blockers I don't see the difference between KQs and KJs.

But indeed now my understanding is both hands are pretty weak anyway, but at least KJs has this property:

by Mlark k

Also, you can turn a T which will make you double gutted to an 8 or Q.

Thanks!

(In game my opponent did cbet 1/3 pot and I did a bad call with KQs, turned a flush draw but they shoved and I had to fold)

by Mlark k

Well, it is very hard to play like a solver 100%

I know, but sometimes you can deduce more general ideas from specific solver output, so I like to (try to) understand if I can.


by boulgakov k

What makes me confused is CO has AQo & AJo in his range, AJo just a little bit less, as well as QQ & JJ. So in terms of blockers I don't see the difference between KQs and KJs.

JJ is more naturally vulnerable than QQ (more bad turns), so makes sense for gto to optimise for the (slightly) bigger threat if it's weighing EV is my guess. Whereas AQ and AJ are similarish unmade hands in this specific calculation so prob not so relevant compared to the bigger threat of made hands that won't fold as often on later streets.

Incidentally IRL the call is probably even worse because oop will be considerably more linear pre. And blocking AK is probably worser now

Does that make sense? No? Great


Few things to consider:

1) KJ is more likely to make a straight. (KJ can go runner-runner on T-8 or Q-T, while if you hold KQ you can only go runner runner on J-T)
2) KJ is less likely to be dominated if it makes top pair (OOP has fewer AJ compared to AQ, and fewer JJ compared to QQ)


by tombos21 k

Few things to consider:

1) KJ is more likely to make a straight. (KJ can go runner-runner on T-8 or Q-T, while if you hold KQ you can only go runner runner on J-T)
2) KJ is less likely to be dominated if it makes top pair (OOP has fewer AJ compared to AQ, and fewer JJ compared to QQ)

Thanks.

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