GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Regarding ball-dominators not being 1st option for a dynasty or dominant champion, I'm 12 for 12 and you're 0 for 12

That's what all this is based on - sample size - this eliminates the "noise" that you're alluding to.

Due to the 0 for 12 history, I don't anticipate that a "ball-dominator" with under 40% career assisted rate like Mitchell can produce a dominant champion or dynasty, since the history shows that a different assisted rate and skillset (bigs or jumpshooters) was required 12 out of 12 times..

However, he can still win a title, but history shows that only unique circumstances existed the few times that a ball-dominator won as 1st option, such as Wade catching the league by surprise as the first high-scoring, down-hill player, or Lebron's collusions with opposing franchise players..

It should be noted that Mitchell's assisted rate has been closer to 45% in recent games to push his overall rate over 40%.. Again, the lowest rate in the playoffs for a dominant run is 46%, so he could have a dominant champion if he maintains his recent levels in the playoffs - a tall task for a ball-dominator like Mitchell... Of course, his career rate of under 40% precludes him from ever having a dynasty as 1st option - this is intuitive since no one expects that anyway.

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8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

^^^ 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/KdQqrfC-M...

^^^ Broussard is wrong in 1 aspect when he said "lebron is too good to ask for more help"... The skillset of high-scoring, point guard-style play, aka "ball-domination" entails a bunch of unassisted buckets that reduces teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate or spot up role... By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, elite roster construction is impossible for high-scoring ball-dominators, so they cannot be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions).

Since ball-dominators cannot produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside of the top 10 all-time.. Specifically, anyone can select who they feel are the best jumpshooters and bigs in history and put them above all ball-dominators like Lebron.. So a hypothetical top 10 could be: MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - that's a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear.

In addition to their inability to be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), high-scoring ball-dominators make it harder to win titles in general by virtue of the aforementioned lowering of teammate assists and having low assist teams, versus the high-assist teams and ball movement associated with the average title team.

I'm agreeing with you. When the Cavs were 34-5 I was thinking "no way this team could be a dynasty or dominate Champion. Mitchell has a less than 40% assisted rate". But the last 5 when they are 2-3 I was thinking to myself "YES. YES!!! THIS TEAM COULD BE A DYNASTY OR DOMINATE CHAMPION! HE'S OVER 40%!!"

Thread Cliffs

Jordan's first playoff teams were 1st year low seeds with zero development... Otoh, Lebron got 3 seasons to make the playoffs, so his first playoff teams were veteran high seeds that included the East all-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - they also had higher-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls... MJ would 3-peat quite easily with all that help, so Lebron's 1 Finals appearance is hardly "floor-raising" by comparison.

Furthermore, the 07' Spurs showed that the East was so weak that a 22 on 35% player won it (and 6 TO's).. The conference was so weak that Lebron, Iverson, Kidd and Dwight won it with 1-star teams despite averaging 25 ppg or less for the Eastern Playoffs - MJ never averaged less than 27 in any series.. By Lebron's 5th season, he had "floor-raised" the Cavs to 45 wins, but then he received another all-star spacer to open up things for his stiff arm in 2009... By 2010, Lebron had a 7th-year organic juggernaut and league favorite that included better defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scoring options.. It's pretty nice to have a 20k scorer at 3rd option (Jamison) that was a better scorer than Pippen and outplayed Lebron heads-up in the 07' 1st Round.

Unfortunately for Lebron, his skillset of high-scoring, point guard-style play, aka "ball-domination" entails a bunch of unassisted buckets that reduces teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate or spot up role... By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, elite roster construction is impossible for high-scoring ball-dominators, so they cannot be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions).

Since ball-dominators cannot produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside of the top 10 all-time.. Specifically, anyone can select who they feel are the best jumpshooters and bigs in history and put them above all ball-dominators like Lebron.. So a hypothetical top 10 could be: MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - that's a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear.

In addition to their inability to be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), high-scoring ball-dominators make it harder to win titles in general by virtue of the aforementioned lowering of teammate assists and having low assist teams, versus the high-assist teams and ball movement associated with the average title team.. Ultimately, the suboptimal style of ball-dominators underachieves rosters the most, such as Lebron going 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt, while the GOAT standard is to never lose in any of these scenarios.

Do we still think Knecht > Pippen ?

Knecht is much better at 23 years old than Pippen was.

Pippen never passed Larry Nance or Iguodala, so we'll see if Knecht can get to that level - he would easily get there alongside someone like Curry, Jordan or Kobe that allow teammates to grow and don't impose spot-up roles via ball-dominance... Unfortunately, his career will be ruined alongside Lebron's ball-dominance just like Ingram, Kuzma and Westbrook before they escaped, or like Hughes (he didn't escape)..

Taureen Prince, Spencer Dinwiddie, Gabe Vincent, Jared Vanderbilt, Christian Wood, Andre Drummond, Cam Reddish, Russell Westbrook, D-Lo, Rui Hachimura, Dorian-Finney-Smith, Dennis Schroeder, Patrick Beverly, Malik Monk, Avery Bradley, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Alex Caruso, KCP, Danny Green and Montrezl Harrell (6MOY before joining Lakers).

^^^ It's fraud - no other team in the league gets ANYWHERE NEAR this level of transactions and getting every good role player shipped to them.. The league-wide objective is to get Lebron #5 and GM's are in on it... Why can't Jokic or Curry get this kind of transaction activity and opposing GM's willing to deal and help them out??... It's pathetic and Lebron is completely carried - the biggest fraud in sports history.. An ONGOING fraud.. ..

It isn't coincidence that Dorian Finney Smith and Gabe Vincent arrived on the Lakers after being the hottest-shooting role players in the previous playoffs (24' and 23' Playoffs)... The current Lakers have the best 2nd option in the league, and all these transactions have given them the deepest team... Guys like Dinwiddie, Taureen Prince, Monk, Christian Wood, Westbrook and others were buried on the Lakers bench but started elsewhere.

It turns out that Westbrook is a great player and yet Lebron has even gotten rid of his replacement D-Lo!!!!... Everyone was so happy that Westbrook was replaced by a good shooter, yet that wasn't enough either.. Lebron simply has the worst chemistry ever, due to his skillset restriction to ball-dominance... And it's abnormal ball-dominance from the frontcourt, so it's the worst ball-dominance that yields the worst chemistry and most underperforming teams ever - this includes the most losses ever with preseason favorites, Finals teams and bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt, and 1 or 2 seeds... Almost any other star would easily be the colossal favorite and win a title with this team.

So if Pippen sucked and never developed that must be Jordan's fault then. Only logical conclusion.

Pippen was a 23-year old rookie that was inferior to 23-year old Knecht.

But Pippen grew by leaps and bounds, while Knecht won't grow at all under Lebron... Look no further than Austin Reaves, who hasn't made an all-star team yet and never will alongside Lebron.. Otoh, Pippen doubled his scoring average in Year 2 and then all-star in Year 3, and then champion in Year 4, while averaging only 17.8 ppg on sub-par efficiency.

See, the issue is that any Jordan fan can tell you that most of the time MJ would finish the game with 30-40 or whatever, and you were asking yourself "I didn't see him get 40" - that's because he operated off-ball, while Lebron's 30-40 points is super noticeable because he's dominating the ball and freezing everyone out.

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Free Throw Differential Rankings

2023

1. Lakers...... +5.8
2. Kings........ +2.1
3. Magic....... +1.9


2024

1. Lakers...... +6.1
2. Celtics...... +2.8
3. Heat......... +2.7


2025

1. Lakers...... +5.2
2. Kings........ +4.6
3. Heat......... +4.3

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comment...

CONCLUSIONS:

The NBA let Lebron choose an opposing franchise player to heist from their team, while also giving Lebron's team 3 times the FT differential as any other team, and 5 times the transactional activity to give Lebron a chance with every good player in the league... Yet he's still a play-in team!!!..

Accordingly, there's a mountain of proof that Lebron's ball-dominant skillset and chemistry underachieves rosters more than anyone ever, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites, Finals teams and perennial play-in status with AD and the most active GM in the league.. Lebron also has bevies of losses with homecourt, all-star teammates and 1 or 2 seeds.. He's a joke and the biggest fraud in sports history that ruined the game - he turned it into a non-competitive league of team-ups, load management and easy-scoring beginner format/rules.
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Pippen grew in leaps and bounds to be slightly worse than Larry Nance.

I could imagine if the Lakers had of recruited what the Warriors did in the off season

"OMG the league is rigged. Lakers just got Buddy Hield. 2nd most prolific 3 point shooter in the last 5 year"

"OMG everyone is in on it. How did the Lakers got slo mo. He's perfect. The whole league wants LeBron to get No 5!"

"Melton!!! This is stupid. It is just unfair that LeBron just keeps getting this amazing players!!!!!!!"

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5[

Yes because Pippen started from a very low place, so Larry Nance-caliber represents pretty good development and more than anyone else was required to produce from teammates to win.

1st Year Pippen........... 7.8
2nd Year Pippen....... 14.4
3rd Year Pippen........ 16.5 - all-star
4th Year Pippen........ 17.8 - champion

Imagine if Lebron could win with a 16-22 ppg sidekick (depending on the season or series).. Instead, Lebron's horrible chemistry needs more help, such as opposing franchise players like the #4 PER of all-time (AD), or the most dominant FMVP ever (Wade), or the only 2nd option to outplay the MVP and also "young MJ" (Kyrie).

It's night and day - Lebron needs guys that can "take over" and "dominate", while Jordan never needed that and Pippen never provided it.

Btw, Lebron received 4 players that were equal or better than 3rd-Year Pippen, as the stats show in the previous post.. Unfortunately, Lebron turns teammates into spot-up shooter, so Lebron cannot develop young players, or develop sufficient chemistry to win with producers of Pippen's lower production level.. Meanwhile, his brand of ball is too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams, thereby needing all-time scoring help - this contrasts with expert jumpshooters like Curry or Jordan that drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can carry the scoring load versus Finals teams and therefore win with less scoring help (star help).

I bolded the players below that I feel are 32-year old Buddy Hield-caliber or higher:

Taureen Prince, Spencer Dinwiddie, Gabe Vincent, Jared Vanderbilt, Christian Wood, Andre Drummond, Cam Reddish, Russell Westbrook, D-Lo, Rui Hachimura, Dorian-Finney-Smith, Dennis Schroeder, Patrick Beverly, Malik Monk, Avery Bradley, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Alex Caruso, KCP, Danny Green and Montrezl Harrell (6MOY before joining Lakers)

So again, the NBA let Lebron choose an opposing franchise player to heist from their team, while also giving the Lakers 3 times the FT differential of any other team, and 5 times the transactional activity to give Lebron a chance with every good player... Yet he's still a play-in team, smh

Accordingly, there's a mountain of proof that Lebron's ball-dominant skillset and chemistry underachieves rosters more than anyone ever, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites, Finals teams, and perennial play-in status with AD and the most active GM in the league.. Lebron also has bevies of losses with homecourt, all-star teammates and 1 or 2 seeds.. His ball-dominant brand barely wins Olympics despite 12x the All-NBA talent as every opponent.. So he's the biggest fraud in sports history that ruined the game - he turned it into a non-competitive league of team-ups, load management and easy-scoring beginner format/rules.

I'm just saying how you would reacted to a ordinary bench player if they had of ended up being on LeBron's team.

Serious question.

Who was better, Larry Nance or Scottie Pippen?

Are we talking about Larry Nance Jr?

Larry nance once dunked two balls at the same time yo

We can look at stats like scoring, rebounding, blocks, efficiency, PER and WS/48 to see that Nance's are better, but we can also take a step back and see that Nance never got carried.

As a statistical leader or co-leader of several teams, Nance faced real defensive attention as his team's go-to player, so he couldn't get an easy 20 just by living off scraps from the goat scorer or the triangle.. Nance was good everywhere that he went, while Pippen was only good alongside MJ and worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle.. Pippen averaged 14 on 43% just a few months after averaging 20 and winning #6 with the Bulls.. Houston was literally amazed at how bad he was - this is well-documented..

Unfortunately for Nance, most people won't compare him favorably to Pippen because of the All-NBA issue... History shows that winning sidekicks like Pippen get All-NBA once they start winning titles even though they don't have elite production rates, such as Klay, Pau, Pippen, Parker, Ginobili, Dumars and even Worthy - they're simply inflated by the winning spotlight of titles to undeserved media accolade and all-time status... So I'm sure that Nance would have many All-NBA if he took his superior scoring, efficiency, rebounding and rim protection to play alongside Jordan and win a bunch of chips.

In contrast to Pippen and Nance, true elite producers and dominators make All-NBA without needing titles, such as Love, MJ, Bosh, Jokic, KAT, Curry, etc.. That's why I like the comparison of Pippen to Nance, since Nance was right below the line of getting All-NBA legitimately (without winning spotlight inflation) - this is Pippen's level - his production rates and dominance level wouldn't make All-NBA if he had no titles.

Ultimately, Pippen was mostly a dunker.. This is why I laughed when I heard someone say that he would've won with Dominique, since Dominique already had a bunch of dunkers/Pippen's like Augmon, Kevin Willis and others.. Moses Malone arrived in 1990 and played better than Pippen ever did, yet Nique had a weaker team than Jordan's Bulls.

Normally, people assume that a lottery cast would get destroyed by a dynasty and it's a foregone conclusion, but that isn't how people viewed the Bulls/Pistons matchup in 1988... Jordan had the GOAT individual season as MVP and DPOY, so people wanted to see how the Bulls would do.. The Bulls were going to try to actually win the series and not assume that they had no chance - they took it seriously and were trying to win.

This approach allowed them to take the exact same lottery cast from 1988 and improve their effective basketball/chemistry each season, until eventually their style of play was superior and completely overtook the Pistons and every team in the league.

The modern equivalent would be if Wemby took the same lottery cast that he currently has and improved the chemistry each year to eventually solve and destroy a dynasty (like if Jokic won the next 2 titles and then Wemby came along and defeated him with the exact same cast that he has now)... Pressure makes diamonds and this organic path built on overcoming failures produced the most resilient and goat team... Only Jordan and Isiah had this type of path, but only Jordan was the complete dominator and statistical carrier of his team (and the Bulls were a true dynasty).

I remember 1988 against the Pistons. The year the Bulls stole home court advantage by splitting the first two. Then proceeded to lose the last 3 by an average of 15+ where MJ averaged less than 25ppg.

I mean it was better than 1989 though when they got themselves up 2-1, and then proceeded to lose 3 straight while being outplayed by IT.

It's hard to re-create a similar scenario but I'm going to try... Imagine that the Nuggets go on a tear and win 60 games this year and appear headed to dynasty status, and also that Wemby wins MVP and DPOY this year to match 88' Jordan... When the lottery-cast Spurs meet the juggernaut Nuggets in the playoffs, they will be big underdogs, but it won't be a foregone conclusion because people will want to see what goat individual season player (Wemby) is going to do... The Spurs' undermanned cast would be really trying to beat the Nuggets, due primarily to goat candidate Wemby.. This rejection of conceding loss in favor of a "pressure makes diamonds" approach, aka simply improving sufficiently enough to win would allow Wemby to take this same cast to eventual obliteration of the Nuggets after 3 tries.

This is what Jordan faced in the 88' Playoffs.. The Bulls were actually trying to win that series against the Bad Boys rather than concede loss, and this "pressure makes diamonds" approach is why that same lottery cast sufficiently improved their chemistry to obliterate the Bad Boys after 3 tries - it took that long for a lottery cast to improve sufficiently to beat a dynasty... Of course, MJ is the only guy in history that did it in this fashion, aka the "right way".

^^^ 4 HOF's in Dantley, Isiah, Dumars, Rodman, and Laimbeer might still get in, so the Pistons had far more help than any Bulls team that Jordan played on.

And the champion Pistons had 3x all-stars at every spot (Isiah, Dumars, Aguirre, Laimbeer, Rodman).. Rodman was 2x all-star and 2x DPOY... Again, this is far more help than any team that Jordan played on.... On both sides of the ball.