Shortstack 88 overpair on a low board
1/2 Hero eff stack $140, 8 handed
3 hours into session. Table is half nits/TAG all young WG who know each other and chat between hands. Seem to play quite standard. V on MP is one of them but he is a bit more aggressive and 3bets more than the others. Action has been terrible as most hands were uncontested with OR as low as $6, limped preflops checked through river, pots under $10 on SD, etc.
Hero image is likely to be read as fairly nit playing abc poker as well but weak vs further aggression. Folded vs 3b three times already OOP, once to MP. Has also been drawing quite bad. Was about to leave table but a newbie young player (here on HJ) sat 30 minutes ago and played a few poor hands. Decided to stick for a bit longer.
Hero is dealt 8s8h in SB
Pre flop
UTG straddles $5
Fold to MP who raises to $15
Fold to Hero who calls, HU OOP
Flop $38
5d 2d 2c
Hero checks, MP bets $30, Hero?
12 Replies
Probably call planning to fold to much more aggression but folding to this sizing is likely fine
Not a fan of the call this short, at a 3!-happy table, where we don't close the action. Neither am I a fan of playing <30bb poker. I'd play tournaments if I wanted that.
AP, I think V is way OOL on this flop, might be bullying the card dead nit, and either you think V is doing this to induce (so fold) or rip it in over V. Pick one. Pretty much a dream flop, if you can't actually get an 8 to fall.
You're less than 30BB effective, so calling with 88 in the sb, especially in a rake-pot game, feels spewy.
Given you're nitty image, I'd rather 3-bet here, and if called, shove most flops.
I think you should 3bet jam pre-flop. I think calling in the SB off this stack depth is pretty bad.
As played, I think call or jam would both be OK. I don't think hero-folding an overpair at 3 SPR against an aggressive opponent is the best play.
Yeah I hear you all. Just adding that straddles were not common at this table until two players sat down in the last half hour and started doing it essentially every time they were in UTG (one of them here). My default buy-in is for 100bb and I was planning to top up once I reach <50bb (w/o straddles) but I failed to see how the dynamic changes once people start straddling - something I don't need to care about when playing online.
Grunch:
PRE - prefer a 3B over a flat call.
FLOP - flat call is fine. Might mix in some check raises when the pot is relatively small. Reasoning is that this board shouldn't connect with V's range very often, our hand could use some protection, and at low stakes, opponents aren't all that likely to 3B, even when this board shouldn't really hit our range either. Would be more inclined to check raise combos with no diamond or club, so we've got the right suits here.
For ppl saying 3bet pre, to what amount? H is already short, why not call to see the flop? Otherwise, it's 3bet/fold, right, and goodbye $45 or whatever?
This is a lousy spot otf with 88, seems like it's good but I can't tell you how many times I've seen V with a better overpr. Good for V if it's a bluff but I'm folding to that betsize.
Fair point. I'll admit I overlooked the stack depth. My default is to just play most of my range as 3B or fold from the SB.
I still sort of hate flatting and trying to set-mine when we're not deep enough. I guess we could 3B-jam and hope to fold out some better PP's, like 99/TT, maybe even JJ. Maybe we fold 99/TT and get called by AK often enough to make that the better play.
I'd prefer the flop to be more middling-connected, something that is very likely to give us some 2P combos or sets, so that we can credibly rep a real hand if we check-jam.
Even with this board, though, V is going to have a hard time calling off a check-jam with a lot of his range.
Honestly, I never play with 70bb's in a cash game. With the straddle on, we're only 28. I don't know, but it seems like a reasonable spot to get it in with an over-pair to the board and around a 1.5 SPR. I'll defer to the solver pilots, if they say it's terrible. Maybe it is.
Thanks everyone for the replies.
Results:
Spoiler
Shoved and got called by JJ. ss1 nailed it. Very tricky spot as I also thought it was a dream flop without an 8 to shove.
Close eyes jam easy we are super short maybe multi callers big pot and we have a playable stack again!
For ppl saying 3bet pre, to what amount? H is already short, why not call to see the flop? Otherwise, it's 3bet/fold, right, and goodbye $45 or whatever?
This is a lousy spot otf with 88, seems like it's good but I can't tell you how many times I've seen V with a better overpr. Good for V if it's a bluff but I'm folding to that betsize.
You're absolutely right it's a bad spot with 88, given the stack sizes. Once you raise preflop, there is no folding, so you might as well shove (especially given your nitty image!) which should at least get a lot of his overcards to fold and possibly even hands like 99-JJ.
Of course, there is nothing wrong at these stack sizes with simply folding 88 here in the sb.
Thanks everyone for the replies.
Results:
Spoiler
Shoved and got called by JJ. ss1 nailed it. Very tricky spot as I also thought it was a dream flop without an 8 to shove.
You're absolutely right it's a bad spot with 88, given the stack sizes. Once you raise preflop, there is no folding, so you might as well shove (especially given your nitty image!) which should at least get a lot of his overcards to fold and possibly even hands like 99-JJ.
Of course, there is nothing wrong at these stack sizes with simply folding 88 here in the sb.
Spoiler
Ya, that unfortunate. I've also learned the hard way in those spots so if V is bluffing esp with that big betsizing, good for them. Usually, though, to me it seems like he's protecting his overpr on a wet flop.
My question is if V would've folded his JJ if H 3betshoved pre? I personally would've just seen the flop and folded but for players more brave/risky making that shove move, I wonder.
