1/2 NL: Is this a standard stack off with combo draw?
Table is a bunch of 25-30 yo loose passive nits who like to see lots of flops but will never put in a lot of money unless they make 2p+
EP limps $2, Hero (super tight image) makes it $16 in MP with J♠️9♠️, CO calls, EP calls
Flop ($50): T♠️7♠️4♦️
EP donks $22, Hero raises to $80, CO snap shoves $280, EP folds, Hero (covers) calls
CO shows T♣️7♣️
EP folded QT as expected (I raised his donkbet knowing he will 100% fold to my raise)
a) Is the preflop raise standard at such a table or is overlimping better? I’m never sure what’s better.
b) If we know EP’s donk range is 100% TP and he will 100% fold to a raise, this hand has to be raised, right?
c) We can never fold to the shove, correct?
10 Replies
Preflop it sounds like you may have lost your discipline. Did you raise to 8x because you expected a 5-6x raise to get called loads? In which case your super tight image was the correct one. Look, results orientated of course, but if this is the sort of table where an 8x raise is likely to go multiway, then keep it simple with a tight linear range, especially from MP. ATs+, QJs+, AQo+, 88+...that sort of thing. I wouldn't kick up a fuss if you raised JTs, and an overlimp can't be terrible at this sort of table, but your tight play previously was probably best and folding J9s from mediocre position is fine. Your premium hand will arrive sooner or later.
Flop raise looks OK if you are confident in your read (you might get some K/Q-high flush draws to fold as well, which would be an excellent result)
Calling off with a combo draw is OK. You need 32% equity to break even. Against a range of sets alone you are 35%. Throw in some combo draws and nut flush draws and your equity doesn't really change much (65ss, KQss, AXss, etc). Rake makes it close to break even.
Make a note that your opponent called an 8x raise with T7s and adjust your preflop range accordingly.
Preflop it sounds like you may have lost your discipline. Did you raise to 8x because you expected a 5-6x raise to get called loads? In which case your super tight image was the correct one. Look, results orientated of course, but if this is the sort of table where an 8x raise is likely to go multiway, then keep it simple with a tight linear range, especially from MP. ATs+, QJs
Thanks, I figured I may have lost some discipline preflop, but it just feels like I’m playing tighter and tighter if I end up folding J9s as well on a relatively super passive table. But yeah, maybe I should fold it anyway and just wait for top of the range, and living with the fact that I may get no action as a result.
And yes, 8x because it’s 1/2 and $10 wouldn’t cut the deal to get it HU.
P.S. I’ve been trying to play that linear range since the past 15 hours and caught like 3-4 good hands/pots at best. Which is why I try to open up sometimes, and get into these high variance spots.
Firstly, as an experienced poster, you should know not to post results in your OP...
It just feels like pre-flop spew. Although I generally hate overlimping, at a table of nits I'd rather overlimp with J9s versus trying to iso with J-high, although I might just fold as well.
IMO preflop is OK, as are folding and limping. You were 45% against his exact hand, so if he turned it face up, it would be a call. You are worse against a set or a higher flush draw. You are way ahead against 6s5s. It is actually a little close, but you have to call.
Grunch: As played I think it’s fine and I’m turbo folding to the jam. Your hand is sexy but isn’t marriage material.
Can't fold with pot odds even though you are significantly behind villain's range.
Pre is questionable if they are that loose/passive. Flop I am calling. We should have 12 outs vs. his range, and I'm OK with that.
Edit:
a) I over limp vs. loose/passive players.
b) Yes.
c) You can, but I don't.
I don’t think J9s should be played from this position. Then again I’m the nittiest OMC in the casino.
I normally flat with my draws if there are players to act behind. My thinking is I want to keep more money in the pot to chase my draws. People talk about isolating. But if someone is leading into several players after a preflop raise then there is a good chance that they are strong. I don’t like the isolating a player who is currently ahead.
You say that you know the ep will 100% fold to a raise. Which is great that you have this read! The problem is there is a player behind that is an unknown. What about flatting the donkbet on the flop. If the cutoff folds, will ep still fold to a raise or a bet on the turn? Also if cutoff raises after Hero’s over call, this will allow you to Evaluate the flop action and possibly fold only losing $22 instead of risking your whole stack.
Not trying to quibble over terms, but if they're all loose-passive, they're not nits.
PRE - Why open to 8x from MP? Is that supposed to just take down the $5 in the pot? Seems like a big open to me.
FLOP - Why are we raising the donk if no one puts money in post-flop with worse than 2P? Seems like a spot to just call and see a turn, with just a draw. If our read is wrong or incomplete, and EP is capable of stabbing with 1P or worse, why not let him continue to bet, and invite the CO to come along?
a) at a loose-passive table, I tend to tighten up and raise larger, or just limp along and see a cheap flop.
b) Hell no, we don't have to raise EP's donk. How do we know it's ONLY top pair, and that he's ALWAYS folding to our raise? We have so much equity in our hand, it would suck to get jammed on, and we can always steal the pot if he checks on a later street.
c) I think we can fold to the shove, since we could be drawing dead to a handful of outs, if CO has a higher flush draw. CO called our fairly large raise pre, and is now snap shoving over a donk and a raise from the PFR. He could easily have 2P+ or just a better draw.
Only other thing I'd mention is that the flop raise size seems bad, to anyone good it just screams draw that doesn't mind getting it in now but will hate bricks. If you try to balance by raising 77/44/etc. to the same size then you lose all of your value from those hands (would argue you are losing value with this hand also, but). Maybe that's not a problem with the players you have, but also...
The raise is intended to be so big that they immediately fold JT/T9/etc. type hands and you win 72, but now when they call it's going to be a big problem to continue bluffing turn bricks. Also the size means you are priced in to further action on the flop. Also far from obvious to me that people fold even Q high flushes (maybe something like Q2s folds, but probably not even K2s and even Q5s "looks like" a combo. draw) given description/reads (like people in this thread might, but they aren't calling 8x raises with T7s either).
Getting 3bet is kind of the best worst outcome, you can't fold and have an okay amount of equity vs. even As4s and will realize.
