GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

You were wrong - all the stats show Pippen's production being similar with and without Jordan (PER, WS, TS, PPG, APG, OBPM).. Your choice of BPM was wrong for all the reasons stated (steals counter, team performance, and it's a defensive stat when we're measuring offensive performance).

Ultimately, guys like Klay, Pippen, Pau and Murray play at or near career highs (capacity) alongside highly-assisted skillsets like bigs or jumpshooters, while the teammates of high-scoring ball-dominators are turned into spot-up shooter, which craters Reaves, Rui, Bosh, Love, Jamison, Hughes, IT, Rose, Clarkson, Dinwiddie, Drummond, D-Lo, Westbrook, and many more.

And the Bulls had the #1 defense without Pippen for the first 35 games in 98' and then cratered to 9th when he returned... Similarly, the Bulls improved without Horace in 95', or Jordan in 94'... Individual defense has always been an overrated consideration for everyone that wasn't a complete civ on that end.. A player just needs to be competent and not a complete emergency on defense.. Otherwise, things like effort and long-standing team culture/chemistry matter more than individual defenders.

Way to sidestep and avoid everything I said. Looks like you were totally, irrefutably wrong and are just a bedwetting fraud after all. Carry on with your crusade.

translation: i'm avoiding your points because you're right, i'm wrong.. now I'm going to gaslight and avoid some more

Way to gaslight and pretend I didn't address your points, while projecting the fact that you didn't address any of mine.. Either way, it's public information that high-scoring ball-dominators lower teammates' assists and increase their assisted rate (increase everyone's spot-up role), so they lower the stats of most good teammates and cannot grow young players.. Meanwhile, the best bigs and jumpshooters can dominate while the ball moves, so they have great chemistry/teammate performance and teammates play to capacity alongside them (similar stats with or without them on the floor).

Since high-scoring ball-dominators turn everyone into spot-up shooter, they prevent elite roster construction and haven't been the leading scorer for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), aka 0 for 12.. Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs or jumpshooters, which puts lebron and all ball-dominators outside the top 10 all-time (behind all the best bigs and jumpshooters).

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Reminder: Reaves is a 30/6/10 player without Lebron , but gets reduced to 19 alongside Lebron:

2025

Reaves w/out Lebron........ 29.7... 6.3... 9.7
Reaves Overall Stats'......... 19.1... 4.3... 6.1

Contrastingly, in 1994 and 1995, Pippen averaged 22 ppg and 5 assists, versus 20 and 6 assists alongside MJ - so the gap is negligible or zero when assists are considered.. (we know that off-ball guys like mj increase everyone's assists, while high-scoring ball-dominators like lebron lower everyone's assists).

Ultimately, high-scoring ball-dominators lower teammates' assists and increase their assisted rate/spot-up role, which lowers the stats of most good teammates and doesn't grow young players.. Meanwhile, the best bigs and jumpshooters can dominate while the ball moves, so they have great chemistry/teammate performance and teammates play to capacity alongside them (similar stats with or without them).. The superior chemistry/teammate performance produces superior team ceilings/Finals records.

Since fallguy has successfully argued above that the Bulls’ team defense was superior without Jordan, he has uncovered another argument that Jordan is overrated and LeBron is superior.

That he states the opposite conclusion is no matter - we have determined he is just trolling. His arguments all point to the same thing: Jordan is overrated. Fallguy’s assisted fg% and now his team defense arguments have fully converted me to the LeBron is greater than MJ side. Excellent arguments fallguy and your troll work is fantastic.

^^^ Get defeated and claim victory... The story of Lebron and his fans.

Years from now, people will raise their eyebrows as they learn that Lebron played 25 seasons with the most all-star teammates ever, yet he still didn't win more rings than a guy that played 15 years with 1 all-star.

Then they will see Lebron's vastly inferior production rates/dominance and skillset/chemistry, and they will quickly understand why he won so much less despite having so much more.

It's pretty amazing that people think his legacy of deck-stacking and then mostly losing will stand the test of time - look how people try to tear down Jordan, and there's so much more material for someone to go back and destroy Lebron's resume... It will be pretty cool because people will certainly do it to protect and boost the latest goat candidate, just like they tried to tear Jordan down to inflate Lebron..

And Lebron won't have the shoe legacy or enduring legacy in any one location to sustain him, and everyone has seen him in a million docs already, so no one will care about a lebron doc... Plus it wouldn't cover goat stuff like 3-peat, 70 wins, or perennial winning, and will mostly make excuses for the many catastrophic losses that he had in his career - so the doc would suck anyway.

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Top Tier of All-Star Duo Achievement

KAREEM & MAGIC............ 5 chips in 9 years........... 5-4 in Finals

KOBE & SHAQ................... 3 chips in 5 years........... 3-1 in Finals

DUNCAN & PARKER......... 5 chips in 15 years......... 5-1 in Finals

CURRY & KLAY.................. 4 chips in 13 years......... 4-2 in Finals

MJ & PIPPEN..................... 6 chips in 9 years........... 6-0 in Finals

Secondary Tier of All-Star Duo Achievement

LEBRON & AD................... 1 chip in 6 years............. 1-0 in Finals

LEBRON & LOVE............... 1 chip in 4 years............. 1-3 in Finals

LEBRON & WADE............. 2 chips in 4 years............ 2-2 in Finals

LEBRON & BIG Z.............. 0 chips in 7 years............ 0-1 in Finals

LEBRON & BOSH............. 2 chip in 4 years............. 1-0 in Finals

LEBRON & Kyrie............... 1 chip in 3 years............. 1-3 in Finals

* 21-year old minimum age for duo

Lebron has only missed 4 games ffs, Reeves has missed 5 for what it's worth

You only looked this up because Reeves just had a huge game when Lebron was out.

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Top Tier of All-Star Duo Achievement

KAREEM & MAGIC......................... 5 chips in 9 years........... 5-4 in Finals

KOBE & SHAQ................................ 3 chips in 5 years........... 3-1 in Finals

DUNCAN & PARKER...................... 5 chips in 15 years......... 5-1 in Finals

CURRY & KLAY............................... 4 chips in 13 years......... 4-2 in Finals

MJ & PIPPEN................................. 6 chips in 9 years........... 6-0 in Finals

Secondary Tier of All-Star Duo Achievement

LEBRON & AD.............................. 1 chip in 6 years............. 1-0 in Finals

LEBRON & BIG Z......................... 0 chips in 7 years............ 0-1 in Finals

2 All-Star Teammates

LEBRON & LOVE/KYRIE............... 2 chip in 4 years............. 1-3 in Finals

LEBRON & WADE/BOSH............. 2 chips in 4 years............ 2-2 in Finals

* 21-year old minimum age for duo

Reaves was already way up before the last game and also all of last year, while countless other teammates cratered in Lebron's career as well, so this is the standard, not a one-off

Years from now, people will raise their eyebrows as they learn that Lebron played 25 seasons with the most all-star teammates ever, yet he still didn't win more rings than a guy that played 15 years with 1 all-star.

Then they will see Lebron's vastly inferior production rates/dominance and skillset/chemistry, and they will quickly understand why he won so much less despite having so much more.

It's pretty amazing that people think his legacy of deck-stacking and then mostly losing will stand the test of time - look how people try to tear down Jordan, and there's so much more material for someone to go back and destroy Lebron's resume... It will be pretty cool because people will certainly do it to protect and boost the latest goat candidate, just like they tried to tear Jordan down to inflate Lebron..

Except you conveniently didn't follow your own rule when counting Lebron with Big Z. We would expect nothing less from you.

And Big Z is about the weakest 'all star' imaginable. Dennis Rodman and Horace Grant were all stars too on the stacked Jordan superteams.

If Jordan developed Pippen, then Lebron developed Reeves. You can't just pick and choose when it's convenient for your weak and biased opinions.

0 for 5 with Big Z

I stand corrected.. And we know that the all-star duo of Lebron & Zydrunas added a player that was better than 1990 Pippen to make their first playoffs in 2006.. That's more offensive help than MJ three-peated with, and also better defensive ranking too, despite Lebron not being all-defense (stacked defensive roster).

Ultimately, 6 "durant chips" in 25 seasons with the most all-star help ever is still nowhere near 6 chips in 15 seasons with the least all-star help ever.. Lebron's career will be most known for insane team-ups followed by head-scratching perennial underdog status and losing.. (it isn't head-scratching for us of course - we know why his teams always underwhelm)

There's a few problems with that.

Since Lebron's teams often have multiple franchise players that match him statistically, it could be said that AD is equally-responsible for developing Reaves just like he did Jrue - it's infinitely easier for guards to play with highly-assisted bigs than ball-dominators like Lebron..

Secondly, Reaves' stats explode without Lebron and crater with him, so Lebron's presence is the only reason Reaves hasn't been an all-star yet - guys that play like all-stars typically make the all-star game, but Lebron is holding Reaves to only 19 and 6 APG (30 and 10 without Lebron).

Thirdly, the fact that Reaves is the first guy in 2 decades to grow from low producer to meaningful producer makes my case (the exception that proves the rule, and that AD developed anyway).

Cool 5 game sample size bro.

Pippen was 3rd and 7th in MVP voting when Jordan couldn't be bothered to play basketball. 3rd place matches the highest MVP voting ever achieved by AD. It also matches Wades best finish. Irving has never received any MVP placing at all.

Pippen is the 2nd best modern sidekick, just behind Kobe.

Surprise factor is often the #1 factor in MVP voting and yet this fool was never seriously considered.

Most people are surprised to find out he was 3rd because it was never mentioned and he was never a credible threat to win the award - this is common knowledge, so the whole "he was #3 for MVP" argument means less than when Blake or PG13 were 3rd... They were at least mentioned occasionally, whereas no one was like "gee who is going to win MVP this year - Hakeem or Pippen???"... That conversation has never happened on this planet earth.. Ever

The Bulls won a ceremonial 55 against sleeping opponents - they weren't a real 55 win team that anyone took seriously or thought they would grow into anything, and they quickly cratered in 95'.
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Reaves cratered last year alongside Lebron as well, and the standard for 22 years is good teammates mostly cratering alongside Lebron.. This includes Reaves, Kuzma, Westbrook, Hughes, Ingram, Bosh, Love, D-Lo, Dinwiddie, Drummond, Montrezl and dozens more.

And we know why teammates crater... High-scoring ball-dominators have large volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles... This causes weak fits and prevents young player development.. Lebron's ball-dominance is particularly egregious because it's coming from the frontcourt, so this abnormal ball-dominance gives teammates less time with the ball than they get alongside normal forwards.

Penny, Robinson, Clyde, Curry, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Kawhi and AD (or Lebron) were all better sidekicks that actually contributed with elite stats, dominance and 1b status, while Pippen was just an athlete/defender-type that never dominated and was carried to 6 titles..

Here's how we know for a fact that 19 on 42% isn't supposed to win 6 Finals... Anyone that won more than 2 Finals had a teammate get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 PPG... So Pippen never met the standard for winning sidekicks, and the only reason anyone praises him is the ring count that he was carried to.

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20 disqualifying factors:

1) Never produced a great team despite arguably the most help ever and the most opportunities to play with every type of star and coach

2) A losing record with every type of good roster, such as 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt

3) Clear weaknesses like FT's, turnovers, clutch efficiency, mid-range, ball movement (off-ball), and chemistry/fits (turns everyone into spot-up shooter)

4) Couldn't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player and needed to team up with multiple franchise players - this included a ready-made FMVP that taught him how to win

5) Wade was 1st option over peak Lebron in the 11' Playoffs and carried Lebron to his first win over nemesis Boston

6) A goat meltdown in 2010 was sandwiched between upset losses in 09' and 11' to 1-star teams

7) Record losses, lottery seasons, sweep losses or 1st Round losses despite all-star teammates in 14', 18', and 21-25'

8) Failed to win 60 games with prime Kyrie/Love and only won 53 games in 2017 and 2014 despite 2 all-star teammates

9) 1 sixty-win season from 2011-2017 despite 2 all-star teammates

10) All-time leader in missed shots, turnovers and clutch FT's

11) Horrific clutch efficiency and 0-7 on game-winners in the Finals - Lebron never scored on the last possession of 1-possession Finals game

12) Horrible "ball-dominant effect" of reducing teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate (turning everyone into spot-up shooter), thereby preventing elite roster construction, chemistry and teams

13) Zero young player development in 22 seasons

14) Longest list of bad fits ever due to turning everyone into spot-up shooter - Lebron has the worst record of development ever, so he needs ready-made stars

15) His high-scoring ball-dominance produces low ball movement and low assist teams, so every playoff series loss shows deficits in team assists (except the goat choke in 2011)

16) Coaching carousel (uncoachable) because his skillset requires that he dominate the ball

17) Lebron is 20-21 in the Finals excluding 07', 15' and 18', so he has a lottery record on the championship level regardless of cast - a lottery record with super-teams

18) Never carried weak help over top teams (never won series vs top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick)

19) Started with the preseason favorite from 2011 to 2016, but fell to underdog or loser each year (except the Allen miracle) - so he starts with favored talent but bad chemistry causes a fall to underdog or loser.

20) No all-defense in his 30's

21) Lost twice in international competitions and needed Kobe to "redeem" him in 08'

22) Unprecedented 35% and 6 TO's per game in 2 different series (no one ever played that badly except LeFraud)
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How is Austin Reeves not counting as player development? If that doesn't count then nothing counts and no player has ever developed another player.

More nonsense; it never ends.

Miami was a great team. The Lakers in 2020 were a great team.

The Cavs probably never were a "great" team, but it isn't a great organisation.

But this is a nonsense point—LeBron, Jordan, and Kobe don't "produce" great teams. Coaches and GMs build teams, and players lead them. Your entire thesis is fubar.

I mean, whatever. LeBron lost as a finals favourite once—in 2011—and won as a dog twice. The Warriors and Spurs were great dynasties; it is what it is.

LeBron is not perfect in every aspect, but he's still the best all-round basketball player. Played every position on the court and only 40k points / 10k assists / 10k rebounds player in NBA history.

LeBron's career arc differs from Michael Jordan's, but that's okay. There are no rules; just because players like Jordan had limited agency over their careers doesn't preclude LeBron from changing the game in that respect. You think one thing is "normal" because you are old.

Carried LeBron over Boston in 2012?!!? LeBron was MVP and Finals MVP in their two title seasons. I don't know what you're talking about.

The narrative arc of LeBron's career is that he has consistently come back from devastating losses to win the title again. After 2011, he went on to win MVP / FMVP for the next two years. He came back from 3 - 1 down in 2016. When it looked like there were no moves possible following the sweep in 2018, he had the title in his hands two years later.

This is what true greatness is. Jordan had the perfect context, great organisation with the GOAT coach, and perfect supporting casts. LeBron's path has been more challenging, but he has bounced back multiple times as part of the most remarkable career ever.

The 14 Spurs and 18 Warriors are historically good teams, and LeBron's surrounding case was on its last legs each time. The Miami Heat, with Wade and Bosh in 2014 / 15, won 37 games and missed the playoffs. The Cleveland Cavaliers, with Kevin Love in 2018 / 19, won 19 games. The records of these teams with LeBron off the floor were sub .500.

Meanwhile, the Bulls sans Jordan won 55 games and took the EC semi-finals to 7.

You want it to be one way, but it's the other way.

So what, who cares?

So what, who cares?

He's also the all-time leader in game-winning shots in the playoffs.

Jordan makes the right pass to a teammate, and they make the shot—a god. LeBron passes to Green, and he misses...LeDefer. He passes to Allen, and he makes the shot...LeChoke's title shouldn't count.

This is just hater nonsense. LeBron has one of the most clutch plays in finals history with the Block and led a 1-3 finals comeback with the most points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks from any player on the court for either team. He's averaged a triple-double in the finals.

He's a different player than any player in NBA history, and his hyper-impact manifests differently.

This line of conversation has been extensively ripped apart. That you continue repeating it is sad, insane and delusional.

To take the two prominent examples, Kyrie Irving and Austin Reaves have got better playing with LeBron.

More debunked nonsense.

Extensively debunked.

How many titles have LeBron's coaches won without LeBron? Hint: you know the answer.

The Finals are brutal, and LeBron's opponents have always been great, except in 2011.

"No one player has ever shouldered more and carried a team to the finals" - Jeff Van Gundy, 2018

2007 and 2018 are incredible single-minded conference championships featuring a super human individual effort from LeBron.

I don't even know what this means. He won three titles during this stretch, including the GOAT Finals individual performance and team comeback in 2016.

He got DPOY votes in 2016 and 2017, but whatever. In his 30s, LeBron maintained a huge positive defensive impact in the playoffs.

Olympic MVP at 39. Three gold medals. His International career is better than Jordan's, not a matter of debate.

"No-one"?

Whatever man. You flood this thread with garbage post after post. Cherry-picked nonsense that has been extensively debunked over and over again. Somebody needs to send in someone who can advocate for Jordan better. You're not that guy.

Since Lebron's teams often have multiple franchise players that match him statistically, it could be said that AD is equally-responsible for developing Reaves just like he did Jrue - it's infinitely easier for guards to play with highly-assisted bigs than ball-dominators like Lebron..

Secondly, Reaves' stats explode without Lebron and crater with him, so Lebron's presence is the only reason Reaves hasn't been an all-star yet - guys that play like all-stars typically make the all-star game, but Lebron is holding Reaves to only 19 and 6 APG (30 and 10 without Lebron).

Thirdly, the fact that Reaves is the first guy in 2 decades to grow from low producer to meaningful producer makes my case (the exception that proves the rule, and that AD developed anyway).

A quick note - the assisted rate stats are available for last night's game and Lebron has already lowered Luka's assists while increasing his assisted rate and spot-up role..

Luka only had 4 assists compared to 8 normally, while his assisted rate increased to 40% last night compared to 34.7 normally.

lol... This has started swimmingly.

Meanwhile, Lebron had 20% assisted rate and 7 turnovers, so his ego will not allow himself to come off the rock... It's going to be awesome to see the unfolding events continue to support the doctrines established itt