Should I get T986ds in preflop in this hand?

I strongly disagree that repotting before the flop is your only option. If you simply call the extra 18 closing the action you will be in four way pot with a good connected rundown with the gap at the bottom. Your no way near nutted double suits don't work well as a primary draw four handed but when you flop the very possible straight wrap (and you get to see if you do at a cheap price) the suits block higher flush draws and sometimes let you escape with backdoor flushes those times you get it heads up after the flop. Of course sometimes you get the wrap (or trips/two pair) as the primary draw with a flush draw and the flush draw also turns out to be good.

As played I'd call the repot leaving the measly 75 behind. Some flops will be so bad for you that you can save the money but of course if you get any sort of piece including a single back door send it in.

PS I'm on a windows desktop. How do I insert the Euro symbol?

Sure I take your points, I'm just going by what JNandez prescribes in his book. T986ds is not given as a good multiway hand because of the risk of being dominated in both wraps and flush draws. But it is a strong hand and happy to play a heads up pot at a low SPR, and it's also an excellent result to get players to fold after they have already put 12.5bbs each into the pot. These smooth but non-nutted hands flop well and are happy to get the money in with a pair plus draw at a lower SPR. All these edges are gone if one instead calls preflop and goes into a multiway hand with a high SPR, out of position against several players. I'd be much more inclined to call with a hand like AJT9ds that wants to play a multiway pot as it can get the money in with dominating draws.

There's no way on earth I'm calling the €425 and folding for €75 later in the hand, so if I do call I will be getting all the money in preflop.

My keyboard has a shortcut for Ctrl+Alt+4 for the €, and you can also use Alt+0128.

4b in theory. I like these hands to balance our 4b range and you can call off any jam/5b profitably. As played it’s perfectly fine. This isn’t a bluff like other hands whose equity comes from folding better hands. This hand has enough components stacking together to play for any amount pre, assuming heads up.

Hands you want to not 4b that are similar will be hands like AT97ds and A987ds. They play well multi-way and if you 4b you have to fold due to the A to any 5b/jams.

In practice, unstudied people think this is a spew because they don’t understand theory. This hand is a terrible multi-way hand. The SPR will be over 4 to a flop and even if you flop a wrap + FD, you could be dominated on both draws and with a 4 or higher SPR you can’t just pile money in.

So you have 2 options. Fold or 4b. I’d ignore the 3bettor as you don’t care what he has other than if he’s capable of 3b a hand like QJT9ds which sucks for you. I’d focus on whether the cold callers are dumb enough to call off a 4b. If so, fold. If not, POT.

As an exploit you can call closing the action with the understanding you can’t just pile money in with this hand unless you flop the uber nuts on a rainbow board with like a higher straight, boat, 2BDF redraw. Your post flop edge has to be massive and you need to be able to get away majority of the time they have you dominated, despite connecting hard, on flops like JT7 or QJ8 with a FD board.

In general people don’t properly adjust their ranges to live and rundown hands are the most misplayed hands live. You played this one perfectly IMO. Could you have just called? Sure. But it’s a massive exploit and you need very good reasons to do so such as a VIP while making -100bb/100 mistakes post flop being a cold caller.

Thanks, I agree with this and I'm glad to see that other people share my views and agree with my decisions.

However, we did not get to the crunch. Are you calling it off, or folding?

TLDR: Calling

Unique dynamic here. 2 pots we are playing for and we have to flop enough equity to win outright, as we have no fold equity in either. We simply have to flop a piece. AA will never fold any flop ever and we actually can fold some such as trip, double paired boards such as 333 and KK2. We will never just fold out the 4bettor on a good flop for us, so call and save the money on bad boards and any other board you flop anything of anything just get it in.

The only way I would jam here is if you are under rolled and want to avoid variance by running it twice. Otherwise it accomplishes absolutely nothing. Literally not a single thing. I’d rather get a monster stack to cover.

Math wise I don’t see any compelling reason to fold. Calling 300 to win 750ish in the pot. You need more than 28% equity. You have no fold equity post flop so you can just calculate pre if you have enough. This hand in a vacuum has enough 3 ways vs theory ranges and even more vs spew ranges.

I've mostly played live but played online about half the time back in the day before Black Friday. I find online fundamentally different. A live player usually has a more significant portion of his "bankroll" on the table at any given time and often is playing much deeper than online. A multiway online pot might be three or rarely four way but in the typical loose live games often have five or more players seeing the flop. When I play live I often give up small edges by not raising (especially out of position) when it is close in equity before the flop to keep the game smaller since my bankroll isn't huge for the stakes I play (I'm a recreational for profit player and my bankroll is only somewhat replaceable).

My observation is that the typical online player (with the same bankroll as the live player) is playing smaller stakes and often playing two to four much faster games at once usually only 100 BBs deep. This usually means he can easily and typically put up multiple bullets after getting felted over the many tables he will play that day. He could be felted many times yet come out a winner for the session. He is essentially getting in far more hands playing far more tables making swings even out for any given session.

The typical winning live player plays much deeper (once the game gets going I'm often at 300-400 BBs effective) and rarely goes through more than three or four large buy in bullets. For the live player holding back on small edges that increase variance is something worth doing IMO. The online player should push small edges since no single table he's playing matters that much.

The middle high card strength double suited rundown with a single and best gap is certainly dominated in the flush draws but can often enough *if the price is right* flop great wraps or pair/trips/two pair with a draw or small wrap that are anything but dominated. If it flops the ignorant end of the straight wrap or a flush draw without much else I'm probably folding early in the hand or at least playing cautiously.

In the hand from the OP by just calling before the flop for only 17 Euros more closing the action but out of position against everybody post flop I have a chance to realize a huge edge in equity when I hit a good to great flop with an SPR of about 5 to 1. By sticking it in before the flop I might have a larger overall edge (but maybe not) at the risk of losing my stack close to half the time.

I'd only fold on the flop for 75 Euros more (if I held it back) on the very worse flop so I suppose getting it in is better for image or wouldn't hurt you much if you did.

Thanks for the tip regarding inserting the Euro symbol - I'll play with it when I'm not at work 😀.

If I put in the 3-bet (and sometimes I would) at this stack depth I'm calling the 4-bet or just jamming all-in for 75 more. Your hand has plenty of equity cold (love the comment above regarding possible spew equity) and being all-in (or close to it) you always realize your equity. Playing much deeper out of position there would be a good chance you won't realize your equity.

Okay, thanks. I agree with most of your points. My reasoning behind jamming pre is that I feel I am committed after putting in over 80% of my stack, and I'm never folding - so I'm getting it in. Good point about getting it in order to run it twice - that's an option I hadn't considered and would have been a good choice with my specific hand. I didn't work out the exact equity required to call during the hand, and perhaps I should have. If it had folded around to me, I was definitely calling, as I knew I had at least the 33% equity required to call. The thing that threw me was the third player in the pot, and my concern was that his (likely speculative) hand is going to give my equity a hit. I had a look with Omaha calculator and it's pretty close. Depending on the third player's hand I sometimes have the required 28%, and sometimes not. The question then I guess is do I have enough equity on average vs both UTG+1 and the button's ranges. I concluded in the hand that I didn't, but it seems that I was mistaken and that I likely do have enough equity to call. So I made a bad fold. The flop came all spades and UTG+1 had A♠9♠A♥7♦; the button didn't show so we didn't find out what he had.

Yeah your points about the difference between live and online are definitely valid. Another thing is that it's not possible to play 9-handed online anywhere anymore, and I love being able to play 9-handed live Omaha. I like your approach with giving up a small amount of equity to effectively reduce variance; I do this when playing Texas Holdem myself and it certainly keeps the swings a little more manageable.

The problem with my hand T986ds is that it absolutely does not want to play a multiway pot out of the small blind with a high SPR. It's a great hand with a smooth equity distribution, but it's non-nutted and as we have mentioned previously can easily be dominated or get the money in against dominating draws on the wrong boards. That said, it absolutely does want to play heads up pots with a lower SPR and where the likelihood of being dominated is significantly lower (and actually doesn't factor in as much because if, for example, we flop a pair and a ten high flush draw with a low SPR, we are of course getting the money in asap - but that would be suicidal if playing multiway with a high SPR. Therefore 4betting, at least in my view, is the only option for me once the action comes around to me after UTG+1 3bets and there are two callers.

If I get the money in preflop - yes, I'm going to lose my whole stack around 70% of the time, but it's still a profitable call - and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Please don't ever fold T986ds pre unless
A) someone shows dominating cards
B) you've got ICM or bankroll issues
C) you're super deep and oop to a bunch of crushers, your range is face-up if you call, and you need to go to the bathroom

Surely there are other situations where it's possible to do so too, for example raise, 3bet, 4bet cold before the action gets to you?

The concept of 4betting such hands (as some people agree and from Jnandez's book) is as you said to avoid playing multiway, but in my experience that happens way too seldom in live settings. So just for the sake of lowering the SPR to negate your positional disadvantage, I would personally not 4 bet this hand. The initial 3 bettor has probably more raw equity than you, so you are either hoping to get it heads up and being a 60/40 dog, or get it 3-4 ways (which you are trying to avoid in the first place) and then your draws might be dominated.

Better call the 3 bet since you close the action and then stack off if you hit hard. You can 100% fold on boards like KJ3, K52 AJ9 or with the other suits.

I would agree with 4 bet either 6 handed online or live if some of the callers are capable of folding to a 4 bet or if the initial raiser might mix in some speculative hands as his 3 betting range. Because what is actually the purpose of 4 betting, if a very large portion of his hands he 3 bets with are AAxy, KKxy AKQTds or sorts that would probably snap repot anyway and you are behind playing for your stack.

Yeah, I'm exaggerating and I do occasionally find a fold in those situations and even maybe 50% of the time when we're in the blinds and it's been 3b ahead of us. Most of the rest is cold-4betting.

But this isn't that situation. Folding here is mind-boggingly bad. You are:

a) closing the action
b) getting ~4-1
c) have the best relative position
d) you have goddman T986ds
e) you're playing live and you have implied odds with this hand rather than the reverse implied odds you might get playing this against crushers, against whom I'd still call because this hand is a monster.

I 4b hands like this online for balance but think it's spew to do so live where call is just going to be so much more profitable, and where we don't gain anywhere near as much benefit from playing balanced. I would 4b this live if and only if there were some political reason for me to be seen as a crazed laggro gambler i.e. if i play too snug I won't be invited back. But if you're playing purely for the profit right now, then re-opening the action when you could close it for a fantastic price is.... well, brave, if not borderline suicidal. Save these plays for online.

'Playing T986 at a high SPR, multiway and out of position is clearly a disaster'

No, not clearly, nor factually. If you've made it to 2p2, you're good enough to play this hand profitably in this spot.

I never understand these takes. If you don’t want to take the most profitable line in favor of reduced variance, then just fold. Why play these hands and make navigating post flop harder for yourself then properly adjusting your range for the dynamics in play? The only way that makes sense is when the EV between the choices are similar. I’d argue by just calling here you are losing a ton. You are OOP to 3 players, 2 which cold called a 3b. You have no idea where this hand stands or what flops are good or bad for you. If you don’t want to 4b it, just fold. These are the hands that eat into your winrate and keep you at the low stakes by misplaying. Maybe calling when closing the action on the button with position on all players sure.

Fold mid and low rundowns in multi-way scenarios. Who cares how pretty the hand looks? No one is ever going to see it. Fold the 7654ds when flops go 5 to a flop.

Instead, take the hands that are normally correct folds preflop and call them due to their properly calibrated multi-way properties.

Fold - 8765ds, 9865ds, K776ds, 8855, etc

Call - AK75ts, QQ85lowsuit, AJ92ss

3b - AQQ7ss, AQJTss, AJJTts, KKJTds,

You expand ur linear 3b range since people call with trash but reduce your polar range since people still call with trash.

Now if you are getting 3b liberally, you then readjust back to normal, but the way to scoop up spewed EV is not to play hands that cant win the EV they are spewing.

Your goal isn’t to win all the pots. Your goal is to win the big pots by the river.

Who said anything about not taking the most favourable line in favour of reduced variance?

Why fold, when call is very profitable?

Why 4b, when live players don't fold as often as online players do nor care about balance?

You want to fold T976ds but call QQ85 with only the 85 suited?

'Why play these hands and make navigating post flop harder for yourself then properly adjusting your range for the dynamics in play?'

I don't play poker to make my decisions easier, I play to make profitable ones. I anticipate far more profitable situations with this hand postflop, despite being OOP, because I can play well enough to get away from enough dodgy situations, keep my losses minimized when I'm dominated, and get chunks of implied odds when I flop a good hand, and expect to get paid. Being OOP isn't the disaster you seem to think it is. I have plenty of idea where my hand stands and which flops are good for me. I'm going to have a lot of very easy decisions with this hand. I back myself to make the difficult decisions well.

If I see someone open UTG+1, get 3b, and then two cold-calls before it gets round to them, and they fold, I'm marking them as a fish in one way or another, because if your hand is good enough to open utg+1, it's good enough to call closing the action & getting >4-1.

Another reason that 4b is spew is that 3 people have already indicated they are prepared to put a lot of $ in preflop. We've probably got some fold equity against the HJ, not that people should be cold-calling a 3b in position with hands they shouldn't be willing to call a 4b with, but he's certainly more likely to fold than the button who is putting in ~16% of his stack pre.

When I said earlier 'I 4b hands like this online for balance sometimes', I don't mean in this exact spot, because we don't expect to have enough fold equity given stacks behind. 4b is spew, in part because calling is clearly profitable.

Multi-way you want nutted hands that can play multiple streets for stacks. This is connected and DS but easily dominated by all kinds of trash hands that call $25 pre in loose live PLO games but fold to a 4b/5b jam like QJ92, AT83, KT97 etc all with a higher flush draw.

You are OOP to 3 players and have to act first on all 3 streets.

QQ85 flops top set which dominates lower sets. 8855ds is a better hand in theory, but flopping middle/bottom set in live PLO is a bankroll burner more times than not in multi-way pots at high SPR. 8855 would rather 3 bet, but folds in live PLO environments due to where it gets it’s equity being unattainable, where as QQ85 calls in live PLO instead of folding cuz it prints copious amounts of extra equity when it hits.

Hands like these mid/low run downs are the hands that people say they “took a bad beat with” and “awww how did I lose that” when in reality it’s just poorly calibrated ranges preflop.

We also have a ton of open/folds in both theory and in practice in live PLO, especially multi-way and OOP. If you don’t have any, you are the fish and why live PLO is so profitable.

I’d look into the concept of equity realization. Your argument for calling here can be filtered down to primarily “something something pot odds”.

Sure the hand looks nice and has decent raw equity in a vacuum, but it’s gonna be hard to realize that equity majority of the time, especially given the dynamic at play as we are OOP and multi-way to 3 players with a 5 SPR. What happens when we flop a pair, gutter, and 2 BDFD? Majority of the time we will just fold our equity like this as significant money goes in.

'something something pot odds'

do you think pot odds aren't important?

Your argument for folding here can be filtered down to primarily “something something oop”.

Yes, you're going to have to fold some equity postflop.

If you wanna play QQ-85s in this spot but fold T976ds, anticipating more easy spots and more profit with that hand, then let's see who burns their bankroll first

Is the book referencing a spot with 250 bb stacks?

UTG vs. UTG+1 (with 2 flats behind) also suggests this might not be the right spot for a 4!, especially adjusting for live ranges.

Sure, these are valid points and I agree that as far as 3betting is concerned, one definitely does not have anywhere near as much fold equity playing live compared to online - but I'd argue that there is definitely significant fold equity with 4bets in most games. The point, as mentioned above, is that T986ds does not want to play a multiway hand with a high SPR, but is very happy to play a heads up hand with a low SPR. That's why I don't feel I want to play this hand mutliway in a 3bet pot. But you're right that it's player-dependent, and if they are mostly 3betting AAxx and going to rip it when faced with your 4bet, it's simply burning money to 4bet this hand too often.

Of course I'm never folding. It's a 4bet/call spot.

Can you actually prove that calling with this hand is more profitable than 4betting?

T986ds is clearly a hand that wants to play a heads-up pot with a low SPR. What flops are you actually hoping for with this hand in a multiway pot that you are happy to get the money in on? Even when it flops the nut straight or boats it is always vulnerable - much more vulnerable than high card hands, and much more vulnerable in multiway pots than heads up ones.

IIRC it's referencing 100bb stacks.

Yes you're right that the fact that it's UTG vs. UTG+1 is a significant factor and UTG+1's range is likely to be AAxx heavy as a result.

So what is one to do? Folding can't be correct, 4betting runs into a 5bet jam and getting one's money in behind (despite getting the right price to call), and calling results in playing a multiway pot with a hand that is easily dominated.

A conundrum, to be sure.

No, I can't prove it.

Yes, you prefer heads up and with low spr, but that's unicorns land. It's not rrelevant to the question of whether its +ev. Yes, you'll face a bunch of uncomfortable spots and get outdrawn sometimes in ways you might not with a better hand, but that still doesn't add up to - ev.

One way to think about this is board coverage. If we're folding this, are we getting sufficient board coverage from those hands we're calling in this spot that have middling cards in them to hit flops with? So if the flop comes 679, the only time we've flopped the straight is maybe JJT8ds+, TT88ds?

Because we have a high spr, we need to have a measure of board coverage. That's not enough on its own, of course, as the hand needs to be +ev in a vacuum to get any benefit. But it is - while we face a lot of tough decisions, we'll also be faced with a lot of very +ev spots.

The value we get from board coverage goes down when we have more opponents, but it's just as important oop as it is ip. Perhaps moreso, though perhaps moni / echemondo / mark can comment better on that.

And to qualify again, these factors are worth less in the face of quality opponents against whom I could be convinced it's a losing play to make.

We don’t need this hand for board coverage. That comes from hands like AJT9, A876, A986, AT87 etc with nut suits that are designed for multi-way.

Remember, multi-way we have on average a 20-30% betting range and our duty to defend our range is split between every other player in the pot facing a bet. It’s practically impossible to be exploited any reasonable amount to affect your win rate.