BB 3! bluffs
EP min opens, were in the BB with about 25bb.
Whats the preferred 3! bluffing strategy here?
I've been watching BenCB strategy and he advocates using weak suited gappers: 64s/63s/75s/74s/85s etc
I look at GTO solutions and it prefers a blocker: A9o/A7o/A4o/A2o/K3o
Ive tried both strategies and not sure which is better... with the suited gappers you have less FE preflop (since you dont block AA/KK/AK) but post flop seems easier to play.
Using A7o just feels so strange post. The SPR is so small I end up playing it like a 4bet pot, but then when I make top pair it feels like im always outkicked when the money goes in. (cause my kicker sucks!) Or i can play it as a XC, but then their range is often SDV heavy enough that they just X it down mostly and I win the minimum.
How do yall approach this spot?
11 Replies
It's interesting to me that Bencb is 3-bet bluffing with those hands out of the BB vs an early position open.
I'm guessing that's an exploit based on the BB typically under bluffing in his spot, and early position openers recognizing this spot is under bluffed and responding by overfolding? At least that's what I'm assuming he is thinking.
Honestly I'm in the under bluffing crowd. By default I'm 3-betting with a pure value range out of the BB vs an early position open (off of a 25 bb stack, at deeper stack depths I do have some bluffs). If I 3-bet bluff there it's typically because I think the opener is opening too much/ won't defend properly vs a raise. In that case I typically try to use a weak off suit A,K or Qx combo that doesn't play well as a flat but has some sort of blocker value.
Not sure that I'm approaching the spot in the best way though. Come to think about it I've had times when very good players seemed to be raising my BB way too much out of early position. They might have recognized that I wasn't bluffing enough out of the BB and was therefore allowing them to over realize their equity? Not sure.
The reason I don't typically bluff much in that spot is because in the stakes I play people often don't open hands like Q9s from UTG that we're targeting for folds. They do open offsuit broadways, but there's no guarantee they will fold those combos to a raise either.
A hand like KTo that should theoretically be folding vs our raise might fold, but most likely calls and might randomly jam too. Hahaha.
Re: your comment about seeming to be dominated a lot when you bluff raise a hand like A7o and flop an ace... I think it's still just fine to stack off because the SPR is so low.
Anyway I'm curious to read other perspectives. 3-betting a pure value range out of the BB vs EP opens off a 25 BB stack might be a leak on my part. It's just that in the games I play people respond so randomly and unpredictably that it can be challenging to formulate a solid default bluffing strategy.
The instruction I ascribe to wants to find bluffs to balance the value bets. If the value bets include JJ+ and AK and AQs and AJs, that's a lot of combos for which you need to find some bluffs to balance, which would include A5, A4s, A3s, A2s (which have the ace blocker) and some middle suited connectors (JT, 9T, 89, 87) that have some ability to flop well and continue post-flop, along with maybe middle pocket pairs that can also continue well on low-card flops.
But with 25BB, even over a 2BB open, if the 3! is 7x or 8x, that will leave you with an SPR of about 1 if you get called. If the play is to jam almost any flop and hope to get the fold if you didn't get it pre-flop (if you're 3-betting with an Ace and get an Ace on the flop, you can jam, and if you have any other combo you can jam any non-ace flop), then that's a strategy that will work a large percentage of the time, but will fail often enough that, for me, it doesn't make sense because I think I can spin up a 25BB stack better by playing good cards and folding my crap in the BB against an EP open unless I have a very specific read that the opener is opening way too wide AND will fold to a 3-bet.
In my world, don't 3-bet as a total bluff from the BB here 25BB deep -- only 3-bet with hands that have good equity post-flop.
It's interesting to me that Bencb is 3-bet bluffing with those hands out of the BB vs an early position open. I'm guessing that's an exploit based on the BB typically under bluffing in his spot, and early position openers recognizing this spot is under bluffed and responding by overfolding? At least that's what I'm assuming he is thinking.Honestly I'm in the under bluffing crow
If they aren't folding to a 3!, there is no reason to 3! bluff. Just widen your value range (AJs, KQs etc.). If you do want some pure bluffs, I'd pick hands like Kxs, not the AWs. Linear opening ranges just have too much Ax that dominates your AW bluffs.
The problem with 3!/folding AWs is that youre wasting your equity when u get jammed on.
I'd much rather 3-bet Axo vs EP as this blocks a lot of their calling and 4-bet range.
I think vs later positions we mix in the suited low cards so we can still comfortably fold to more aggression and cover more of the board with our range when we see a flop.
Agreed with just flatting suited wheels. Don't think we want to be 3-betthing those out of the BB.
I definitely under-bluff from the BB, especially against an EP open. And I'm surprised about BenCB's approach because those middling SCs are much more valuable at deeper stacks. I suppose he's making a decision to prioritize board coverage and not being dominated over blockers. Which makes sense actually. The value of blockers against an EP open will be offset by the strength of the opening range and the much higher proportion of big Ax hands in that range. So while 3b-bluffing Ax does reduce the combos of Ax in villain's range, better Ax hands will still make up a much larger proportion of that range. I'm assuming BenCB would be more likely to 3b-bluff with Ax/Kx out of the BB when facing a late position open.
Calling from the BB is much better than 3bing, unless there's some dynamic where they are opening wide and see you as very nitty. The good thing about calling is you have great board coverage - a 368hh board is going to hit you more than it hits them so you can get away with more. I don't mind 3bing as an exploit but calling with a deeper SPR has it's advantages.
Calling from the BB is much better than 3bing, unless there's some dynamic where they are opening wide and see you as very nitty. The good thing about calling is you have great board coverage - a 368hh board is going to hit you more than it hits them so you can get away with more. I don't mind 3bing as an exploit but calling with a deeper SPR has its advantages.
This is backwards.
Yes, you will occasionally cooler them, and or get good semi bluffing opportunities, but you want to play with a lower SPR when out of position.
As someone once said, if you make the stacks deep enough, even AA loses money OOP...
This is backwards.
Yes, you will occasionally cooler them, and or get good semi bluffing opportunities, but you want to play with a lower SPR when out of position.
As someone once said, if you make the stacks deep enough, even AA loses money OOP...
Depends how wide they're opening and how they perceive your 3b, as well as your post flop ability. I wouldn't use a blanket statement like that in poker - won't lead to good results.
I don't like 3-betting much against EP opens unless I know the EP player is a GTO/Solver/LAG type and has a wide range. I would rather play smaller pots OOP.
However, with 25 bb's if EP opens to say 2.5x or more I have no problem jamming with very strong hands. In the case of hands like 55-99 I seem to get knocked out disproportionately when I jam so I prefer to just call and set mine.
In the case of GTO/Solver/LAG types who will be folding to some of my 3-bets I don't mind doing it with hands like A5s/A4s/A3s/A6s because we block Ax hands. I also include KJ hands which block AK a bit. My typical 3-bet size from BB vs a 2x open is about 7 bb's and I would fold to a 4-bet jam with my bluffs (of course).
