Do You Forgive Lederer and Ferguson?

Im sure at some point over the last year ivey had either come into some damning information or asked some questions about finances (maybe a lawyer of his was told something who knows). Obviously proving that at this point is not going to happen.

Even if he was aware of it going on i don't necessarily put him at fault if he couldn't stop that train. What I will put blame on him for is being associated with it in a large fundamental way. Do I really give a **** at this point? Not really.

As far as Chris and Howard, they clearly got overwhelmed and it was mismanagement that got them in trouble. Taking some of the money is fine, but if they literally stole hundreds of millions themselves,(Bitar too, and I believe this is likely) a large chunk of that should have went back to paying back the players. It would have been a good faith payment to help Pokerstars.

I don't forgive them for their actions and think they're all pieces of ****. They've helped cast a horrible light over what can happen in online poker to the general public. This could be used against its legalization when legislation comes up.

If they were to want to apologize they should (have already) come to the WSOP right before the main event starts and be given a microphone to address a massive crowd of poker players. Apologize for their actions, admit the damage they have done is irreversible, and they will be seeking forgiveness with the "community" (hate the idea there's a poker community considering it's a game of taking from others) for their life. They should set up a room for them at WSOP to let others come in 5 minutes at a time and tell them how what happened effected their life. Call it ridiculous I know.

Too late for that but I'd give them a lot of credit for doing it and I'm a forgiving person.

No. I will not forgive them. I had five figures of my money locked up for nearly half a decade while they were living the high life.

They stole more than money they stole lives

lol

They saw a business opportunity and took it. Period. Full stop. End of story. It’s time to move on.

found the guy who had busted his account before black friday.

The Christian Conservatives were trying to ban online poker from the moment it launched.

It’s impossible that Ivey, Lederer & especially PhD Ferguson didn’t know what was going on, though it’s probably not provable. It’s possible some of the others didn’t know. Of that group, I just can’t imagine who was screaming “we gotta cash out right now!”

And yeah, it’s hilarious how they could’ve just played it straight and made way more money while keeping their reputations intact.

Obviously you have why? I don’t know but they are scumbags! and unless they returned every nickel they stole! Answer is a resounding NO!

OK!

The problem is that it just isn't about the money. It is about trust as well.

By some miracle, I got back every nickle of real money from FTP. However I didn't get any compensation for my FTP points. Even though I played low limits, I was close to a Harley. Never got compensated for that.

Nah.

No

I wouldn't trust them with my money but I'm not seeking to harm them.

I posted in the Patrick Leonard thread about full tilt and my response to this post is on a similar theme to what I said there.

I'm not understanding JimL's thinking here. Full tilt was all just funny money wasn't it? A Ponzi scheme in 1 fashion or another. I don't get why you feel you should be compensated when in some ways it was stolen $.

They advertised a Harley if you earnt enough points. The company imploded. End of. Right?

On one hand I loved how big of a deal they made poker. They put Ivey and Patrick on a pedestal and offered them unlimited supply of bullets to help build their legend. Which Ivey would you rather watch on stream today, bored at the table Ivey or the killer with unlimited backing. Meanwhile you had Chris Ferguson nitting it up taking $0 and turning it into 10k. There is never going to be a time where people are going to go out of their way and see "GG Poker on Tour" https://youtu.be/klApU4x40Ek?si=ePmk4Vzh... what they did to turn poker players into house hold names is amazing....and they almost got away with it if not for the government. 😃

Can't blame anyone for hating them though. But it was some good bullshit while it lasted.

But this is similar to the point i was making.

JimL feels entitled to a Harley Davidson because he logged 1000's of hours at small stakes 😃

And rdedrde1 (me) thinks he's entitled to having a positive winrate @ nlhe/@ poker/@ husng's because i'm a good person.

It's fools gold!

This is from a time when Chris was a good sport. Haven't seen a guy looking that sorry for the eliminated. What happened? Could he be that guy yet again?

Full Tilt committed fraud, pure and simple. They were issuing chips/credit, i.e. creating massive player liability , without any backing. They literally would take a credit card for $1,000 but never submit it because they lacked credit card processing AND failed to keep enough reserves on hand of their own to cover all the un-backed chips they issued. Basically, a Ponzi scheme, where they hoped (?) to collect enough rake to cover their player liability.

There was a huge ego factor as well, as they just HAD TO compete with Stars, and could not abide losing that battle.

Interestingly, Stars was basically an honest competitor, Full Tilt was a fraud in the industry. (Sometimes, a basically honest competitor folded because it was undercut by a third party fraud, such as a credit card processor stiffing them (Pokerspot). Sometimes, a well-intentioned operator (DoylesRoom) needed a bailout and had to sell itself to avoid failure. Sometimes, an honest company saw the writing on the wall and folded, paying all its players and obligations (PlanetPoker)

The thing that gets me is neither Lederer or Ferguson every gave a sincere apology. None of them did. I mean really?

This is an interesting point.

You've got full tilt doing what they wanted in the industry yet stars being run like a proper business, making decisions based on whatever they based them on, hamstrung by a bad actor competitor and STILL that era of stars are loved by the community for giving back to the players (promotions, games offered, etc.)

Howard did.

"I am writing to apologize to everyone in the poker community, especially to all the players who had money on Full Tilt Poker on April 15, 2011. When Full Tilt Poker closed in 2011, there was a shortfall in funds, a distressed sale to recover those funds, and a long delay in repaying players. Throughout this period, there was little explanation for the delay, and no apology. Players felt lied to. They trusted the site, and they trusted me, and I didn’t live up to that trust.

I take full responsibility for Full Tilt’s failure to protect player deposits leading up to Black Friday. The shortfall in player deposits should never have happened. I should have provided better oversight or made sure that responsible others provided that oversight. I was a founder in the company that launched Full Tilt, and I became the face of the company’s management in the poker community. Many of our players played on the site because they trusted me."

(it goes on)

Howard's seemed pretty complete.

Chris's apology was more half-assed, something like "I apologize it took so long to pay back the money we stole..." lol.

Oh Please, how about referencing Bitar? How about saying we knew we were taking in deposits that the banks weren't honoring? He was a crook and he slinked away like a slime. Never spending a day in jail.

Sure. That is the end result, but that doesn't mean the people who assumed it wasn't funny money shouldn't be slightly bitter that they got scammed.

Effectively they made a promise that Full-Tilt Points were worth something. They couldn't back up that promise. So being burned once I will never trust them again.

I am not like angry, plotting to kill them mad. Not at all. It is more of a realization that someone lied to you so I will never trust them again and will give them no quarter ever again in the future.

If I am ever at a table with them in the future I will never do violence upon them (unless that is a choice they make), but I will call them out on it and may make some rude comments.

You are misreprenting my position. I am not entitled to a Harley. Scams happen all of the time. I am not entitled to anything. However I will remember that both of these people ran a company that promised enough play could earn a Harley and they didn't live up to that promise.

They ran a ponzi scheme that couldn't follow up on the promises they made.

That is on them and should not be forgotten. Just because some other company was willing to pay enough to bail them out on players monetary bankroll should not absolve them of their other failed promises.

Sure they promised backing of players monetary bankroll and got lucky to be bailed out on that, but they also made other promises that never were fullfilled.

What do you say to people who ask for your trust and they fail to live up to their promises? I say "**** them" and never trust them again and make sure others do not get fooled by their lies either.