GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
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Goat standard at 40 years old - 43 of 89 points against the #1 defense and East champs in the toughest defensive format ever, where competitive-minded players were eager to finally have a chance against the old lion
Fake standard at 40 years old - 40 of 120 points and 11 turnovers against a bottom-dweller in a hands-off, wide-open format that allows 20 more ppg, while the league's design around a single colluder disincentives opponents from winning or going hard (since it won't get covered and they won't be praised for it)
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Lebron was carried to the 5 seed in 2025 Regular Season:
AD.................. 25.7 ppg... 27.1 PER... 0.210 WS/48
Lebron'.......... 24.7 ppg... 23.4 PER... 0.152 WS/48
Lebron was carried in the 2020 Western Playoffs:
AD.................. 28.8 ppg
Lebron''......... 26.7 ppg
Lebron was carried in the 2016 Playoffs:
Lebron''......... 26.2 ppg
Kyrie.............. 25.3 ppg
Lebron was carried in the 2011 Playoffs:
Wade''............ 24.5 ppg
Lebron........... 23.7 ppg
Role players can get a lot of rebounds or assists, but only stars can score a lot, so scoring help is the "star" help and MJ didn't need it, while everyone else did.. Everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.. MJ also averaged 5 more points than everyone in playoff history, except 3 ppg above Iverson and Doncic.
MJ also averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and RS career, while getting equal or more DPOY votes for 7 of 9 seasons... If elite assists and playmaking were needed, MJ was the only option, so he was the floor general, defensive leader, and carried the biggest scoring burden of all-time, by far.
When he had "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player like everyone else, he did nothing and lost catastrophically, which forced him to start teaming up with opponents... This made his career joke thereafter, so 4 chips with the unprecedented roster-stacking and help that he's had isn't top 10 all-time.. This is objectively true.He had literally 40 all-star teammates in his career
You got a Guy like Shaq with great teams ( got swept like 5 Times ! ) and had one of the greatest second option ever (Kobe) …..only 4 rings and less mvp then Lebron but hey , shaq deserve top 10…..
Smh
You got a Guy like Shaq with great teams ( got swept like 5 Times ! ) and had one of the greatest second option ever (Kobe) …..only 4 rings and less mvp then Lebron but hey , shaq deserve top 10…..
Smh
Shaq achieved the pinnacle with his help that included a dynasty (3-peat) and 2 dominant champions (01', 02'), while Lebron had just as much help but never achieved a dynasty or dominant champion (the best basketball)..
History shows that ball-dominators like Lebron can't produce the best basketball as 1st option regardless of cast (0 for 12) because they turn everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents elite roster construction.. This is the statistical and historical record.
Weren’t waiting long: only 40+ age player in NBA history with multiple games of 40+ points.
The goat standard at 40 years old is 43 of 89 points against the #1 defense in a defensive format that allowed 20 less ppg... But regardless, now that Lebron has Luka to match Jokic, the Nuggets should be an automatic W tomorrow night and thereafter, correct?
And the Lakers should have an automatic dynasty, just like we would see with Curry, MJ, or Duncan, since they produced dynasties with lesser players than Luka, correct?
And if Denver is still somehow a problem and Lebron/Luka don't have a dynasty, then doesn't that mean that Lebron is inferior since he lacks the skills to fit with guys and win with greater help than his peers??
Finally, didn't 1 for 6 with AD prove this already? Don't 50+ guys do equal or better with AD than Lebron did, which proves Lebron is a fraud?.. Didn't the catastrophic embarrassments with Wade/Bosh or failing to win 60 with Kyrie/Love already prove this?.. 22 years has proven that Lebron is incapable of a dynasty due to a ball-dominant skillset that turns teammates into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing elite roster construction and chemistry.
Shaq achieved the pinnacle with his help that included a dynasty (3-peat) and 2 dominant champions (01', 02'), while Lebron had just as much help but never achieved a dynasty or dominant champion (the best basketball).. History shows that ball-dominators like Lebron can't produce the best basketball as 1st option regardless of cast (0 for 12) because they turn everyone into spo
Double standard .
Shaq did not play only 2 years ….
Shaq massively underperform many times with good/great teams buddy but you don’t take shaq accountability like u do with LeBron -> shame .
And who Shaq dominated btw once all the great center left or were way beyond past their prime ?
And still LeBron accomplished more !
Shame do you .
U are just pure hate !
Double standard .
Shaq did not play only 2 years ….
Shaq massively underperform many times with good/great teams buddy but you don’t take shaq accountability like u do with LeBron -> shame .
And who Shaq dominated btw once all the great center left or were way beyond past their prime ?
And still LeBron accomplished more !
Shame do you .
U are just pure hate !
Despite a million different coaches, casts, and every type of star teammate, Lebron never achieved the top caliber of anything, such as 3-peat, dynasty, 70 wins, or MVP quality, while Shaq achieved all of them, except 70 wins.
And MVP quality means that half of Lebron's MVP's don't include the title (09' and 10'), while none of them include scoring title... Otoh, Shaq achieved the best type of MVP one time that included MVP/FMVP/all-defense/scoring title (similar to 4 of 5 MVP's for MJ, and MJ's other MVP included DPOY).. Again, all of Lebron's MVP's were lacking something major, such as winning the title and scoring title.
It's amazing that people praise less-than top caliber for Lebron, such as a reporter the other day referred to Lebrons' 4-0 sweep loss in the 2023 WCF like it was a title and part of the goat case.. This is an egregious example of the lesser-than-goat caliber that Lebron gets praised for.. Of course we know why Lebron cannot achieve the top caliber of anything - it's because his skillset foments weak chemistry and spot-up roles for teammates, thereby preventing elite roster construction and teammate performance.
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MVP AND TITLE
Jordan............ 4
Russell........... 4
Bird................ 2
Kareem.......... 2
Lebron........... 2
Wilt................ 1
Kareem.......... 1
Duncan.......... 1
Shaq............... 1
Jokic............... 1
Magic............. 1
Hakeem......... 1
Moses.............1
Reed............... 1
Cousy............. 1
Half of Lebron's MVP's lacked titles and all lacked scoring titles, so Lebron failed to reach the top caliber of anything, such as MVP quality, 3-peat, dynasty, or 70 wins, and he isn't arguably "the best" in any category, such as scoring, rebounding, assists, steals or blocks.. Meanwhile, the goat peaks like Kareem in 71', Shaq in 00', or 4 of Jordan's MVP's included everything, such as MVP/FMVP/All-Defense/Scoring Title.
Of course we know why Lebron cannot achieve the top caliber of anything - it's because his skillset foments weak chemistry and spot-up roles for teammates, thereby preventing elite roster construction, chemistry/teammate performance and teams.
Unfortunately, people still praise lesser caliber from Lebron as if it's the best ever, such as a reporter referring to Lebrons' 4-0 sweep loss in the 23' WCF like it was a title and part of the goat case.. This is a standard example of the lesser caliber that Lebron gets praised for and it's why he's among the most overrated players ever - a purported goat whose skillset produces spot-up roles for teammates, bad chemistry, and perennial losers with every cast.
Goat are about ACCOMPLISHMENTS, failure is meh .
And we aren’t even talking about goat, we are talking top 10 ?!?!?! .
Lebron certainly accomplished enough to be top 10 .
Again find me a player that accomplish as much or more then Lebron not being top 10 then will talk .
Yes I can agree Lebron is a top 10 player OAT
So, been away for 2 weeks. Quick scan through the thread and the latest appears to be 50-100 players could have led the Cavs to a better than 1-3 record against the Warriors.
A better than 1-3 would mean, at worst, 2-2.
Against the GOAT team (at worst 2nd GOAT team) for 2 of those years.
And a team that averaged 70 wins in the other 2 seasons.
And FG thinks that... checks notes...
This guy could do it...
This guy could do it...
This guy could do it...
This guy could do it...
This guy could do it...
Seems about right.
Despite a million different coaches, casts, and every type of star teammate, Lebron never achieved the top caliber of anything, such as 3-peat, dynasty, 70 wins, or MVP quality, while Shaq achieved all of them, except 70 wins.And MVP quality means that half of Lebron's MVP's don't include the title (09' and 10'), while none of them include scoring title... Otoh, Shaq achieved t
Wtf….
Lebron won 2 years straight mvp, nba title, final mvp , all nba 1st team, nba 1st defence team and finish second and 4th in dpoy ….and he freaking won, twice ! -> what more could he do ?
He did that without a Kobe …..shaq says hi!
Hopefully your hate will resolve itself when LeBron will retire and realize how ludicrous you were to believe lebron ain’t top 10….
You must believe it’s terribly close between mj and lebron if you are so scared to give any props to lebron and the needs to totally crush him with double standard nonsense ….
So, been away for 2 weeks. Quick scan through the thread and the latest appears to be 50-100 players could have led the Cavs to a better than 1-3 record against the Warriors.A better than 1-3 would mean, at worst, 2-2.Against the GOAT team (at worst 2nd GOAT team) for 2 of those years.And a team that averaged 70 wins in the other 2 seasons.And FG thinks that... checks notes...T
Don't forget that in year 1, Irving and Love are out so they have to win with Matthew Delladova as the 2nd best scoring option.
But obviously Jordan would've still won there.
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Before joining Steph and Lebron
2016 Durant....... 7.8 VORP... 28.2 PER... 9.9 BPM... 0.270 WS/48
2014 Love........... 7.7 VORP... 26.9 PER... 8.9 BPM... 0.245 WS/48
Quick scan through the thread and the latest appears to be 50-100 players could have led the Cavs to a better than 1-3 record against the Warriors.A better than 1-3 would mean, at worst, 2-2.And FG thinks that... checks notes...This guy could do it... Seems about right.
50 to 100 guys is a good range because any duo or trio that is a little better than CP3/Harden can beat KD/Curry, and this would include prime versions of Lebron/Kyrie/Love - that's more than enough and the only reason why Lebron achieved so much less with comparable talent is because Curry's brand of ball was night and day superior - that was the difference - not the talent.. And this happened many times because Lebron teamed up with the 2nd or 3rd best player 3 different times with Wade/AD/Luka but produced perennial losers each time that were nowhere near dynasties.
50-100 players could have led the Cavs to a better than 1-3 record against the Warriors.
A better than 1-3 would mean, at worst, 2-2.
It's important to note that the only reason the Spurs and Warriors are considered "dynasties" is because Lebron lost to them 5 times and accounts for 5 of their chips - Lebron made them dynasties.
Secondly, Kyrie outplayed Curry in the 16' Finals and hit the biggest shot ever, so that matchup was considered even - this means there was no material talent advantage for the 17' Warriors, since Lebron and KD cancel out... The mismatch only arose after the season began and the Cavs won a pathetic 53 games instead of 70, which made them big underdogs in the Finals instead of a clash of titans like the 80's Lakers/Celtics...
So cry me a river about the 17' Finals - there was no gap in talent and the only difference was Steph's superior chemistry and era-changing brand of ball - that was the difference between the teams... And if you gave Jordan a 2nd star teammate like Lebron had from 11' to 17', he would ragdoll any team in history, since he already produced the goat team with just 1 "pippen"... Let that sink in.
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Don't forget that in year 1, Irving and Love are out so they have to win with Matthew Delladova as the 2nd best scoring option.
But obviously Jordan would've still won there.
A minimum of 2 for 4 is automatic against the 15-18' Warriors because their roster wasn't considered stacked or preseason favorites until KD arrived in 2017... They had a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player in 2015 and also a roster where everyone was a 1st-timer in the Finals, which hadn't won since 1991... So why would it be impossible to beat a normally-losing roster of 1st-timers that wasn't good enough to be favored on paper in the preseason?
The Warriors' underdog roster and 1st-timer status in the 15' Finals is why Lebron still won 2 games despite 35.8 on 39.8% and the worst combination of iso-ball and low-efficiency that the game has ever seen, aka "chucking", aka "iverson-ball".. It still won 2 games because the 15' Warriors were among the most beatable champions in history.. So again, 2 for 4 is automatic for most guys.
The Warriors also had an organic or "normal" roster of 1 franchise player, yet they achieved dynasty status due to great development and ball movement, as allowed by Curry's highly-assisted skillset... Klay was a 1st-time all-star and only a secondary producer, otherwise it was all Steph offensively - he carried the Warriors in the 15' and 22' Finals more than any of Lebron's Finals wins.
For anyone in the top 50 all-time:
* 1 for 6 with AD is bad
* 2 for 4 with Wade is bad (especially via luck/teammate bailout)
For any top 15 candidate:
* 1 for 4 with Love is bad
* 1 for 2 with Love/Kyrie is bad
Wtf….
Lebron won 2 years straight mvp, nba title, final mvp , all nba 1st team, nba 1st defence team and finish second and 4th in dpoy ….and he freaking won, twice ! -> what more could he do ?
He did that without a Kobe …..shaq says hi!
Lebron's MVP's are lower caliber than Shaq's by virtue of not winning a title for 2 of the MVP's, and not winning a scoring title for any of them.
Otoh, the 1 MVP that the media begrudgingly gave Shaq was the best kind of MVP that included everything - MVP, FMVP, All-Defense, Scoring Title... Lebron never achieved this caliber of MVP because he lacks the scoring ability/scoring title.... And Lebron never had a carry-job in the Finals like Shaq did during his MVP year (2000).
You must believe it’s terribly close between mj and lebron if you are so scared to give any props to lebron and the needs to totally crush him with double standard nonsense ….
i spend time on here because i enjoy sticking it to you and showing how defrauded you all are, since Jordan has more:
2 more championships
2 more FMVP
1 more MVP
1 more DPOY
9 more scoring titles
4 more All-Defense
3 more steals titles
2 more dunk titles
^^^ So MJ achieved a top 10 career more than Lebron in 8 less seasons and thousands less games...
So no, not close... Not remotely close.. High-scoring primary ball-handlers, aka "ball-dominators" aren't top 10 because they turn teammates into spot-up shooter and produce low assist teams that make it harder to win, while being incapable of producing the best basketball as 1st option (dynasties or dominant champions), aka 0 for 12.
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I agree with you man. I actually think if you replaced LeBron with an average NBA player they win 4 of 4 against the Warriors.
I also think the Warriors beat the Bulls team in 5 games.
I mean, as you have noted, that Bulls team was so bad. Like, all time bad other than Jordan. And the most overrated coach of all time, playing some offense from the 1840s.
It's actually more likely a sweep.
Congrats FG for being the LeBron of the thread.
I take Kareem's spot.
Candybar with Pippen's spot
Mullen takes MJ's spot
.Before joining Steph and Lebron2016 Durant....... 7.8 VORP... 28.2 PER... 9.9 BPM... 0.270 WS/48 2014 Love........... 7.7 VORP... 26.9 PER... 8.9 BPM... 0.245 WS/4850 to 100 guys is a good range because any duo or trio that is a little better than CP3/Harden can beat KD/Curry, and this would include prime versions of Lebron/Kyrie/Love - that's more than enough and the only rea
Lebron's MVP's are lower caliber than Shaq's by virtue of not winning a title for 2 of the MVP's, and not winning a scoring title for any of them.Otoh, the 1 MVP that the media begrudgingly gave Shaq was the best kind of MVP that included everything - MVP, FMVP, All-Defense, Scoring Title... Lebron never achieved this caliber of MVP because he lacks the scoring ability/scoring
That just make no sense at all .
Lebron won more …..and had worst 2nd option than shaq !
And again I don’t care about mj , mj is my goat ….
I’m talking of the nonsense you say about LeBron not good enough to be top 10 .
2010 Wade......... 28 PER.... 9.2 BPM*
2010 Kobe.......... 21 PER.... 4.4 BPM
* Wade was #2 in BPM, PER, VORP, WS/48
I agree with you man. I actually think if you replaced LeBron with an average NBA player they win 4 of 4 with the Heat.
The union of 2 franchise guys like Wade and Bosh (without Lebron) would've be considered absurd and instant favorites for the title.... Wade/Bosh is like Kobe/Pau II except Wade was a lot better by 2010 (see stats above).
So adding Lebron is an unprecedented consolidation of talent where franchise players from 3 different teams in the same conference teamed up on 1 team.. Nothing like that had ever happened before and it yielded the unprecedented advantage of 6 straight preseason favorites and a sidekick outplaying a league MVP - this unprecedented advantage required another one to overcome it (KD's Warriors).. But Lebron's unprecedented advantage lasted 6 years (11-16') and therefore twice as long as KD's (17-19').
I agree with you man. I actually think if you replaced LeBron with an average NBA player they win 4 of 4 against the Warriors.
It's logical that 100 players in history would win 60 games with prime Kyrie/Love, yet Lebron was 0-3, and these horrific regular seasons caused a fall from preseason favorite to underdog in 15' and 16'.
In those 2 seasons, every team in the league had "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, while Lebron had a "super-team" of 3 franchise players and the preseason favorite - this "big 3" was supposed to have a dynasty and maybe 70 wins, but Lebron's skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter and prevents chemistry or young player development.
History shows that the only reason this super-team got down 1-3 in the Finals to a "normal" roster was because Lebron was averaging 24 and 6 TO's per game through 4 games.. This bed-wetting was similar to the 13' Finals to get a big deficit, and both deficits required teammate bailout to win.
Lebron's MVP's are lower caliber than Shaq's by virtue of not winning a title for 2 of the MVP's, and not winning a scoring title for any of them.Otoh, the 1 MVP that the media begrudgingly gave Shaq was the best kind of MVP that included everything - MVP, FMVP, All-Defense, Scoring Title... Lebron never achieved this caliber of MVP because he lacks the scoring ability/scoring
Btw look at Kareem and steph mvp , how many times they didn’t win a title while being mvp .
Your double standard is shameful for a top 10
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05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP.... 17/3/4
06' ZYDRUNAS'............. 21.9 PER... 1.6 BPM... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP.... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 1.6 BPM... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP.... 22/9/2
That just make no sense at all .
Lebron won more …..and had worst 2nd option than shaq !
And again I don’t care about mj , mj is my goat ….
I’m talking of the nonsense you say about LeBron not good enough to be top 10 .
2008 JAMISON......... #14 for MVP........ 2x all-star*
2008 PAU................... no MVP vote...... 1x all-star
For Lebron to make his first playoffs in 2006, he needed the East all-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen (see stats above).. Lebron also added 2 more all-stars in Mo or Jamison, and role players like Ben Wallace, Shaq, and Varejao... By 2010, the Cavs had more scoring options and better defenses than Kobe's Lakers in 2010 or the 1st three-peat Bulls.
Accordingly, Lebron had a 7th Year organic juggernaut and league favorite in 2010 that would've easily won the 1-star organic chip that was up for grabs in 2011 if Lebron had stayed.. Those Cavs had the long-standing chemistry and reputed defense that the Heat lacked to beat those Mavs.
