GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Lebron fans and media are the ones that pretend like getting swept in the WCF adds to his goat case... Literally anything that isn't absolutely horrible is talked about like he's adding to his resume, and even the horribly bad things are explained away by "needing more help".. It's complete fraud - the guy simply isn't that good if he needs Luka because you know who else needs Luka??... role players.. bums... "others".. Lebron is basically an "other"... His skillset breeds such horrible chemistry that he needs a teammate that can dominate just like "others" need.

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Bird's best statistical season:

1988 BIRD......... 27.8 PER (2nd).... 8.8 BPM (2nd).... 0.243 WS/48 (3rd).... 8.1 VORP (2nd)
2010 WADE....... 28.0 PER (2nd).... 9.2 BPM (2nd).... 0.224 WS/48 (3rd).... 7.9 VORP (2nd)

AD is the #4 PER of all-time and Luka is arguably the best player in today's game, while Kyrie outplayed young MJ and Curry to make or win Finals.

And Love was a top 10 player prior to joining Lebron but became the 3rd option, while the other 3rd option was another All-NBA franchise player in Bosh.

Lebron shouldn't need Luka - he shouldn't need the most dominant players and biggest producers in the league on his team - that's the point..

It precludes anyone from being in a goat conversation if they need a teammate to dominate, or any teammate to be a dominant player - this is because a goat standard has been set that didn't need those things... And certainly, if a player still gets those things and the dominant teammates, he can't produce perennial losers and never get anywhere near a great team, or the top caliber of 3-peats, dynasty, 70 wins, etc.
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What were the odds for Lakers vs Detroit pre-series? How did Kobe go? Did they even make 6 games?

GOAT choke.

Pippen was third in MVP in '94.

Why did Jordan need a sidekick like that before he could win a title?

Jordan dominated a diluted league. Couldn't win in the 80s, had to wait until he got Scottie and Horace Grant/Rodman and the GOAT coach in an era where teams had one all star ftmp.

Statistically the Kobe/Shaq Lakers against Det were the biggest choke job ever (ponied). It's nothing but lies lately, go back to talking about two-footed leaping.

The fact that this is such a lauded consolation prize shows how hurt everyone is that Lebron fell so short of MJ otherwise.

High-scoring primary ball-handlers, aka "ball-dominators" increases everyone's spot-up role or assisted rate, which has a negative correlation with their assists, thus causing lower assist teams... This dynamic of spot-up roles and low assist teams is the Achilles heel of ball-dominators, since every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists, except the goat choke in 2011.. The spot-up roles prevent elite roster construction and chemistry, thereby preventing the "best basketball" (dynasties and dominant champions)..

Ball-dominators have never been the leading scorer for "dynasties" (teams that mostly won over a material stretch of 5 years, aka 3 in 5) or "dominant champions" (champions that averaged 1 loss per round or less, aka 4 losses max).. Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, this is a good case to put them behind the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs or jumpshooters, which puts ball-dominators like Lebron outside the top 10 all-time (behind the best bigs and jumpshooters).

The bad chemistry of ball-dominators simply cannot produce dynasties or dominant champions, and they never won at all without a massive, unprecedented union of opposing franchise players, such as Luka/Lebron, or Lebron/Wade/AD/Love/Bosh... And yet they still have the lowest title frequency and weak regular season records that leads to underdog status, despite usually starting as the preseason favorite.. So their weak brand of ball causes favored rosters to fall to underdog and lose.

The goat standard of 3-peating had already been reached, so Kobe's choking wasn't perceived as such - you don't knock an undefeated fighter for losing the first time, but you knock a winless fighter that keeps choking and can't get his first win..

Kobe and MJ never needed that Eminem song, but Lebron did - he couldn't lose himself in the moment in his first Finals with help (2011), while Kobe did in his first Finals to clinch it in overtime and set the record for clutch ppg in a Finals, while MJ's first Finals was the goat performance that anyone ever had.

See that's how we know what would happen if MJ and Lebron ever faced off - we know that the mental weakness is in Lebron and must come out... KG brought it out... Dirk brought it out.... So what do you think MJ would do.. And we don't need to credit KG and Dirk specifically, but the weakness was there within Lebron, so the circumstance was always going to arise to bring it out - it would look the ugliest against MJ...

And I don't believe that Lebron ever "figured it out" because his clutch efficiency is worse than ever and 0% in the Finals (0-7).. In addition to the weak mentality and clutch, there's the massive hole in Lebron's game (ball-dominance) that good ball movement teams exploited and ragdolled him (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs).

Paul George and Blake Griffin were 3rd for MVP and they were legit because they didn't have to 3-peat first and get inflated by the winning spotlight, or have a ceremonial season after the goat went to baseball..

And you're misstating history because aside from the 80's Lakers/Celtics or the Kobe/Shaq Lakers, the NBA always had "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player until Lebron's decision to make "super-teams" of 3 franchise players... This decision gave Lebron the unprecedented help of 6 straight preseason favorites from 2011-2016 and a sidekick outplay the league MVP.. The media simply pretended that this unprecedented help wasn't something that needed to be overcome by another unprecedented advantage (KD's Warriors).. Both guys had unprecedented advantages, but Lebron's lasted twice as long (11-16' vs 17-19').

Lebron had super-teams against non-super-teams like the Spurs, Mavs and Curry's Warriors, yet he mostly lost... Otoh, MJ dominated a 2-star vs 2-star format like you would expect the goat would - the goat should beat anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format and MJ did exactly that.
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You mean except for the entirety of the 60s w/ the Celtics. And the 70s w/ the Lakers, Celtics, and Knicks.

Lies and/or ignorance.

Oh Bucks too with Oscar and Kareem.

Even the Warriors had two HOF'ers with Cowens and Wilkes. Like every title team ever had two plus HOF'ers except for a couple years in the 70s.

Bullets had Elvin Hayes and Unseld...

Blazers had Bill Walton (HOF) and Maurice Lucas (who was a 5x all-star).

Sonics had Dennis Johnson (HOF) and Jack Sikma (HOF), along with 2x All-Stars Paul Silas and Gus Williams (and he was 2x All NBA those years).

Looks like the Blazers are the only team of the 70s without 2 HOFers. Man you were really wrong again.

Maybe the biggest lie is the conflation of causation and correlation with the preseason faves thing. The teams were preseason faves because they had LeBron, if LeBron was on ~any other team in the East those years they would've been preseason faves as well.

*Rick Barry, not Cowens on the Warriors.

Cowens was obv w Hondo on Bos.

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Bird's best statistical season:

1988 BIRD......... 27.8 PER (2nd)..... 8.8 BPM (2nd)..... 0.243 WS/48 (3rd)...... 8.1 VORP (2nd)
2010 WADE....... 28.0 PER (2nd)..... 9.2 BPM (2nd)..... 0.224 WS/48 (3rd)...... 7.9 VORP (2nd)
2010 KOBE........ 21.0 PER (14th).... 4.1 BPM (19th).... 0.160 WS/48 (40th).... 4.4 VORP (10th)

So Lebron teamed up with Bird/McHale (Wade/Bosh) or Kobe/Pau II but mostly lost each time.. Wade was the #2 producer in the league in 2010 behind Lebron.

No one said anything about HOF's... Draymond, Klay and Pippen are HOF's but not franchise players.

Franchise players are elite producers that were asked to build a lottery team from scratch - the franchise is building around them and they essentially have their own team... This is reserved for the best players like Lebron, Jordan, Wade, Kobe, AD, Luka, etc... Kevin Love, Bosh and Kyrie were also considered franchise players with their own teams.

Again, history shows that the standard in NBA history is to have "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player like Isiah, Curry, or Jokic and then a lesser "sidekick" like Dumars, Klay, or Murray... But Lebron came along and put 3 franchise players on 1 team, which is unprecedented.. Again, the numbers show that he basically teamed up with Bird/McHale or Kobe/Pau II...

The 2016 Cavs had 3 franchise players compared to 1 for the Warriors and every other team, which is why they were preseason favorites.. Lebron never won anything with normal rosters like everyone else had and needed super-teams with multiple franchise players to compensate for the worst-ever chemistry of his skillset.

That's completely false because Lebron wasn't the preseason favorite until the decision in 2011, so the team-up with Wade/Bosh made him preseason favorite.

The decision gave Lebron 6 straight preseason favorites, which is unprecedented because no one else in history had more than 3 straight.. Then he enjoyed the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the league MVP..

The media simply pretended that this unprecedented help wasn't something that needed to be overcome by another unprecedented advantage (KD's Warriors).. So both Lebron and KD had unprecedented advantages, but Lebron's lasted twice as long (11-16' vs 17-19').

He wasn't the favorite before bc Cleveland was basically the worst roster ITL without LeBron. The team sucked, that's why he left. Like I said, any other team in the East would've been rated higher w/ LeBron.

If the 2008 Cavs had the worst cast in the league, then how did they basically beat the 2008 Celtics with Lebron playing worse than anyone ever has?... No one in history shot 35% with 5 TO's per game in a series except Lebron in the 08' ECSF, and also the 07' Finals (35.6% and 5.8 TO's).

It's easy to forget that Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and they added a player that was better than 1990 Pippen to make their first playoffs in 2006 (previous post).

But instead of 3-peating, Lebron played worse than anyone ever has in the 07' and 08' Playoffs and produced a 45-win team until Mo's all-star spacing took the team to another level in 2009, and helped Lebron's game... By elevating a 45-win loser to a 66-win league favorite, Mo's spacing proved to be the difference and a historic part of the foundation for Curry's style of play in later years...

By 2010, the Cavs were a 7th-year organic juggernaut and added another 2x all-star that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round, while also being a rare 20k scorer (Jamison).. It's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option, so the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. They also added a better center than Jordan ever had (Shaq).

The high defensive ranking in 09' and 10' was due primarily to Lebron's teammates, since the Cavs had great defensive ranking in 07' when Lebron was still 2 years away from being viewed as a good defender/all-defense.. The Cavs simply had a bevy of decorated defenders like Snow, Hughes, Varejao, Ben Wallace, and Zydrunas (2.1 bpg) - Jordan never had this caliber of defensive help that allowed top defensive ranking without Jordan himself being a good defender (all-defense).

Nice theory but results matters .
Lebron accomplished more and won more has the primary player then almost anyone that ever played the game .
It’s that simple .
He did more and won more then many players you have in your top 10 .
If results and success do not matter just say so …
U keep saying LeBron play a brand of basketball that is not a winning basketball brand and yet only 1 players has more final mvp then him and he went to 10 finals !

To think is not top 10 is ludicrous…..he got stats , he got titles, he got individual accomplishments, he got domination era ….

style of basketball is :

You think people care what style of basketball they played when their team won ? LeBron got 4 final mvp period ! -> easy top 10 .

Ps: and when you bring one year of stats to claim it represents the entirety of a player career like you do with Hughes and pippen it’s pretty much nonsense .

Any player can be great one year ….
And to prove it , mj sucked big time at 39-40 because he lost and couldn’t made the playoffs with Larry Hughes , a player much better then pippen ….

At least LeBron went to the final with him ….

Mitch Richmond was a big 2 guard, while Reggie Lewis, Dale Ellis, Reggie Miller, Majerle, Theus, Drexler, Augmon and others were 6'7".. Penny, Hill, Finley, Elliot, Schrempf - there were plenty of big wings in previous eras that handled the ball... Magic, Bird... Anthony Mason and Terry Cummings are very underrated... Previous eras also had more brutes that could handle Lebron's size like Antoine Carr, Cliff Levingston, Jerome Kersey, etc... More Larry Johnson types.

For sure !
With Payton and Malone too lol
U know, scrubs …..lol .

Both of them Shaq and Kobe failed together !
But hey all good , top 10 easy lol ….
Poor fallguy .
No consistency at all .

those ARE the results - high-scoring ball-dominators produce low-assist teams over time that have the lowest title frequencies of any skillset and cannot produce the best basketball no matter what they do (dynasties or dominant champions)

again, these ARE the results... There's really no debate because I'm just informing you of the historical record.

^^^ Lebron won nothing with normal rosters of 1 franchise player and needed to form super-teams of 3 franchise players - anyone can do that but only Lebron was allowed to do it, or had enough low character to do it.

Lebron got extra chances by putting the top 3 players in the East on 1 team... It's a black mark to get extra chances by deck-stacking and then have a lottery record in those extra chances (22-33 in Finals, or 20-21 excluding 07/15/18).

And MVP or FMVP are useless awards decided by 12 journalism majors - it means nothing and they get it wrong all the time, such as Shaq with 1 MVP, and missed FMVP's or MVP's in 1995, 1997, 2005, 2015, 2020, 2024, 2007 and many others.

Hughes was 26 years old and coming into his own with 2 straight seasons that out-produced 1990 Pippen:

04' HUGHES.................. 17.8 PER... 0.088 WS/48... 19/5/2
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 16/6/5

But he simply sacrificed his peak years to get destroyed by bron-ball, just like Kevin Love and others did (Luka, Bosh).

40-year Lebron missed the play-in and was 11 seed with AD and Westbrook, so that's worse than 40-year Jordan missing the playoffs and getting the 9 seed with Hughes.

Meanwhile, prime Jordan would 3-peat with the East all-star center a player that was entering his prime and had 2 seasons better than 1990 Pippen (Hughes).

The goat standard of 3-peating had already been reached, so Kobe's bad series wasn't perceived as choking... You don't knock a 3-time champion that finally loses for the first time, but you knock a fighter that keeps choking in the championship and can't get his first win....

And Kobe was historically-clutch by hitting a historic game-tying shot to send Game 2 into OT - it's the kind of shot that Lebron missed and needed Ray Allen to save him - Kobe has actually scored on the last possession of 1-possession Finals games, while Lebron hasn't in 10 Finals..

So Kobe's superior stats and goat clutch doesn't compare to Lebron's choking stats and unprecedented zero clutch-time points for the entire series (last 5 within 5).

You wrote lots of words that didn't answer any of the questions.

Excellent work.