Do You Forgive Lederer and Ferguson?

Howard says he took responsibility, but words are cheap. His actions made it clear he didn't take any responsibility. He didn't go out of his way to make anyone whole that he stole from. He got lucky that there was an angel buyer willing to pay enough to the government to reimburse players for their monetary bankrolls. Howard had nothing to do with that.

F**k them.

Absolutely, they KNEW they were spewing chips for deposits they had no way to process. Absolute, deliberate FRAUD, they just hoped to make it up in revenue.... Rather than maintain assets to cover outstanding liability for player accounts, they floated on air without ANY way to make good.
Back in those days, day-in, day-out a poker operation grossed about 50% in revenue on daily deposits, the rest went to winning players.

If a FullTilt kited deposits, but kept grabbing rake .... a sure way to go broke since they were printing chips for play with NO assets to back the liability.

As I said above, some operators ran into difficulty with payment processors who defaulted on obligations to poker companies, a well-run poker company maintained liquid reserves well over outstanding player liabilities at all times .... in case some processor went belly up.
..... but Full Tilt was not wiling to slow down when they lacked an ability to make good on the chips they put into circulation .... Poker was a P2P game , it is FRAUD, pure and simple if winning players can't redeem the chips he won.

I don't think you understand what the word sincere means, and their two "apologies" were worth exactly the same: nothing.

he was almost better off saying nothing at the time.

"I take full responsibility" followed by not shelling out any of his stolen money to the victims. If you think this is a real apology you deserved to get robbed.

They literally destroyed poker for 15 years. It didn't happen because it necessarily was going to. They're pretty passive with online poker right now, so maybe their incompetence did do it.

When you talk about the truth coming out at a later time it usually means it won't. He is a dirtbag.

No, they didn't. Preet Bharara did.

"By some miracle ...." ?

There was no "miracle" that got you paid, Stars stepped up and made a very good deal, in exchange for dropping DOJ action against Stars, permission to return to the US when it would be legal to get licensed, and acquisition of Full Tilts' remaining assets.

Instead of complaining after getting every nickle paid, how about a loud "dayenu" ?

And that half Harley-Davidson?

This is my issue with Jim's attitude about the Harley Davidson.

I get he was close to getting a Harley due to all the play/hours he spent on the site.

And I get he's angry that it all went to pot.

But ultimately full tilt was fraud/a Ponzi scheme/stolen money. However you want to characterise it!

In hindsight/looking @ it objectively why would you want a Harley now you know that it came from the proceeds of crime/fraud/deceit/whatever?

As for me I am absolutely fuming at myself that I missed the opportunity full tilt provided the community to pad their bankroll legitimately (by gambling in a square game).

The Red Pro's were absolutely dogshit at every form of big bet poker right?

I wish some1 I respected in somewhere between Jan 2010 and august came up to me, put their arm around me and said, 'right rdedrde1 you need to go as fast as you can for as long as you can in this direction until the bubble bursts!'

I just don't think I would have listened/understood what was being said.

This ridiculous line of thought has been rehashed over and over again. In 2010 everyone was saying ‘my god take me back to the 2003 era, everyone was so bad I woulda crushed!’ And before that it was the pre-hole card cam days where players would show to casinos, be told the rules, then sit down to play. You can’t take the poker knowledge available today and apply it to some hypothetical 2010 ‘poker bubble’

If anything nosebleed games were the weakest but this was pre crypto and you had to know some people with very deep pockets willing to buy 500-1k action. But the 10-20 through 50-100 levels were still very tough games. Grinding up a bankroll to play nosebleeds somewhat comfortably was still extremely tough

No1 is disputing your poker skill.

Or whatever you have done in this game.

All I'm saying is this is 1 way of looking @ things...

Exactly.
When people say they're sorry they're almost always just sorry they got caught.

Actions speak louder than words.

My point is: you missed my point.

I am not disputing it was hard then to get to high stakes. In the same way it is SUPER hard to get there now.

The point is and it does relate to me: in the same way now that I'm not at high stakes and I'm the reason. In 2010 I wasn't at high stakes and there is a common denominator here. I'm the reason!

There is somewhere between a subtle and significant difference between what I thought I was saying and what I think you are hearing.

All good, apologies if I mis interpreted your post

You are misreprenting my words. Even after I clarified them. That makes you dishonest.

1. I am not angry. I made that clear. I am just aware that promises made to me were not kept, so I am not going to trust/forgive the people that made those promises unless they show real remorse. You are trying to add emotion to a rational decision.

2. I don't want my Harley to come from the proceeds of fraud deceit. I want it to come from the same money that Lederer and Ferguson stole from the players to the extent that in a just world, every FT player would benefit from. They are wealthy from defrauding others while not paying any penalty whatsoever (other than that they couldn't continue it anymore).

To be fair, I think the Justice Department thought they were doing well when they ended up getting players reimbursed for their monetary balances with the PS settlement. At some level they were. Most players were more than happy with that given the alternative. Also, to be fair, I was happy with the settlement as well. It could have been far worse.

However, since then Lederer and Ferguson have lived a very good life compared to many of the people they stole from while only giving lip service to actual remorse. How is this justice?

Jim,

For the record I am super interested in the full tilt situation from an intellectual perspective and I am glad you clarified what you were saying.

We don't have to beat the issue to death so we will move on.

All i was getting at specifically about the Harley is that it's interesting to consider all the perspectives of what any1 thinks they were entitled to for their ftp points as a result of that whole debacle.

OMG I only see Jungleman talking.

Respect to the Jungle.