In other news

sounds interesting and yes, hitler's statements were very much mainstream and not as nearly as they are controversial as they are today - hence the lengthy history of pogroms etc

one of the biggest of the post-wwii revisions was that we convinced ourselves we had no idea the holocaust was going on and/or to the extent to which it was happening

it was widely reported, regulary getting coverage in international media dating back to the 30s

we had waves of jews fleeing it (which we for the most part turned away unless they were scientists)

problem is when most people search newspaper archives they search "holocaust" and then "herp de derp there's nothing there we didn't know" but they are forgetting that we didn't coin the phrase holocaust to describe the event until after the war when the revisionism and hand waving away the guilt happened

What was reported was the exclusion of Jews from civil society, not their systematic murder en masse

nope those articles exist

as do personal accounts of escapees

which would be weird since the mass extermination started in 42/41

with how your mind works, it very much tracks that you'd think this is a gotcha

The US appears to incarcerate more people than China -- about 1.8m against an estimated 1.69m, which, given the disparity in population, amounts to a crazy level per 100,000. Even so, the US only ranks fifth on incarceration rate after El Salvador, Cuba, Rwanda and Turkmenistan. I say 'only', but Jesus Christ that's bad.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/2629...

Not before 1941, as the mass murder of Jews only began with the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, which shortly resulted in massacres by shooting, as at Babi Yar, where all of Kiev's Jews were murdered.

jfc man, the fact that they killed a lot more in the 40s is not mutually exclusive to the idea that they were also killing them in smaller doses in the 30s

the first concentration camp was built in 1933 it was not happening at a mass scale until they went full on in 1942 but it was still happening and widely reported

nobody cared

I can see the argument that hitlers views and rhetoric weren’t that out of the box for the times. And I can also see the point that we have recreated history to make the holocaust a singularly evil event, when it was kind of in line with how humans operated for most of history (minus the efficiency).

Where Cooper kind of loses me is his general argument that it is churchill/englands fault for forcing hitlers actions to match his rhetoric.

I kinda feel the argument would work better if we didn’t have mein kampf and numerous recorded speeches of hitler laying out the blueprint long before Germany invaded Poland.

I think we have enough evidence hitler (and more generally the German people) wasn’t just a misunderstood guy who caught up in history. Even if making him some singularly evil figure in history isn’t really accurate either.

Do you have any evidence china is less likely to incarcerate criminals? Because If not, the takeaway from this is that US culture is just more criminally inclined than china’s.

I have also seen it argued multiple occasions in multiple ways, that if you exclude African Americans, US crime and incarceration rates line up more with contemporary nations.

So the real takeaway might be that the US has a small subset of its population that has some combination of higher levels of criminal behavior and is incarcerated more aggressively than everyone else.

And generalizing beyond this is bad social science.

There is probably less incarceration in China because they usually kill criminals …

They execute a bit under 2,500 a year, which is a lot, but no, it's not the usual penalty for crimes. Again, bear in mind the prison population is near 1.7 million.

i hear that in the 1940s the news cycle was jusssssst a bit different and that - hear me out - many people got their news by going to a movie theater.

That we know of ?!!?…
China isn’t an exemplary transparent country is it ?

I’ll take the over on this one..

There isn't really much historical revisionism that hides the persecutions in the 1930s in Germany and many other countries. This is a well known and well documented event and time period, also in regards to how anti-semitism and fascism went mainstream.

However, the "Holocaust" refers to the actions of Nazi Germany and its collaborators. To make things complicated, the term has no precise definition in regards to timeframe. Some historians use it to describe the Endlösung from 1942-1945, some the ordered mass murders from 1941 - 1945, some the totality of war crimes against Jewish civilian populations from 1938 and onward, and some the entirety of persecution and violence against Jews under Nazi rule from 1933 and onward.

As for what the governments of other countries knew or did not know, this follows a similar pattern to what we see today. China's concentration camps for Uyghurs are downplayed to the point where it has few to no diplomatic repercussions. Description, testimonies and data that corraborate their existence is ignored, and China barring acccess to the camps is used as evidence that they do not exist or are "actually just re-education camps". We can call it a "comfortable ignorance". Nor was World War 2 fought to stop the Holocaust, that was a by-product. It started as a geopolitical conflict that became a war of alliances.

And yes, there are plenty of other countries that commit atrocities, so the whataboutists can go do something expletive.

Turkey has committed several genocides in the 20th-21st century (still ongoing) to mostly indifference.

Very few people, including the majority in this forum, seem to have any self awareness how much they are watching a magic show and thinking it is all real. Their moral outrage is mostly manufactured and they are little more than puppets being pulled on strings by real power brokers.

Nah, I find this entire "sheeple" attitude to other people tiring and bothersome. First of all, it is completely fine to not know something. The world is big and a lot happens in it, nobody is on top of everything. Secondly, people can surprise you, a lot people know a lot more than what they superficially show. Thirdly, arguments like this have less to do with assessing others honestly than they are about aggrandizing ourselves, which is an unhealthy habit.

Also, few people go onto a political forum to post their streams of consciousness (some exceptions apply). Instead, discussion tend to follow the ebb and flows of the forum as an aggregate, where people post and discuss the intersect of their interests. So the discussion tells you more about which topics people have a shared interest in, rather than what every individual has an interest in.

I wonder , manufactured by who ?
Those that follows Twitter(x) , Facebook every hours of the day ?
Those that read couple of different sources from mainstream media’s ?
Those that just take any news they get their hands on and then read and think about it ?

the irony of you posting this while buying into a bunch of manufactured right wing hysteria is not lost on me.

-Social media has added a wrinkle or two, but the rules of the game are still basically the same.

Despite my screen name, I certainly am not arguing I am completely above the fray.

I had no idea how to parse your username until now so thank you for that.

oh yeah haven't listened to podcast but fully agree with this

that's one of the craziest things about the great "we didn't know" con that we pulled off

he literally published a book outlining very specifically everything he would do and then did those exact things

100%