Do you believe in God?
Tell me people do you believe in God?
Ritualized Thinking...
It begins with the undeniable desire for ultimate meaning (DFUM).
Next, is the realization that there is part of you which desires other things besides ultimate meaning, and these desires distract from the DFUM. This leads into identity and identify conflict.
Through identification with the identity which has the DFUM, you are made aware of a meaningful narrative. Once you are made aware of the meaningful narrative, then you navigate through it using identity.
This eventually results in the revelation of the ultimate meaning of life, which is what we actually desire.
The external world plays a role in revealing the ultimate meaning of life, but it’s essential to realize when meaning directs you inward toward desires + identity conflict and away from the external world.
Those who get stuck in the external world, who get stuck in the allure of science, they get filtered out.
Through identification with the identity which has the DFUM, you are made aware of a meaningful narrative. Once you are made aware of the meaningful narrative, then you navigate through it using identity.
There is an initiation into the meaningful narrative which makes you feel as if life is meaningless.
This is a test of faith.
The way to pass this test is to identify with the one who desires ultimate meaning, despite the dominating perception telling you life is meaningless. You have to make a stand in the tension of deprivation.
In short, if you are focused on the desire for meaning, then you are on the right path.
You need to go deeper into the desire and de-identify from other desires.
I think we might mean different things by “meaningful”. I am taking that to mean that there is an underlying purpose to the universe.
This is an important observation on your part, since "meaning" and "meaningful" can have, well, different meanings depending on context.
I think the argument that I reposted is using "meaningful" in contrast to accidental. To say something is meaningful is to say that it is the result of something intentional. To say that something is intentional is to say that it was brought into existence as a willful deliberative action.
To say some thing or event is accidental is to say that that thing or event was not the result of a willful deliberative action.
Right from the start, question #1, we see an intensely stubborn dogmatic orientation that "only god can make the world meaningful." This is a bit of a trick as well, because it isn't really the world we seek meaning for, but our life. What is the meaning of the Andromeda Galaxy and some quasar millions of light years away is not a pressing question to the vast majority of human beings.
Looking at it more realistically and locally, anything that we care about has meaning for us. If you care about
"Meaning" and "meaningful" can have, well, different meanings depending on context.
I think the argument that I reposted is using "meaningful" in contrast to accidental. To say something is meaningful is to say that it is the result of something intentional. To say that something is intentional is to say that it was brought into existence as a willful deliberative action.
To say some thing or event is accidental is to say that that thing or event was not the result of a willful deliberative action.
Right from the start, question #1, we see an intensely stubborn dogmatic orientation that "only god can make the world meaningful." This is a bit of a trick as well, because it isn't really the world we seek meaning for, but our life. What is the meaning of the Andromeda Galaxy and some quasar millions of light years away is not a pressing question to the vast majority of human beings.
Looking at it more realistically and locally, anything that we care about has meaning for us. If you care about
The bolded is quite a bold (haha) claim if the universe and everything in it is ultimately accidental. If the universe is indeed accidental/unintended then to say "THE purpose of life is X" is a category mistake. Saying an accidental event has a known purpose seems rather fantastic to me.
To look to supernatural gods to spoon feed us meaning is primitive and superstitious.
Not sure what problem you would have with this notion if it gives the person who believes it meaning in their life.
No one has produced any evidence for any of the untold gods proposed by mankind.
Perhaps it might be more on point for you to say, "I am not personally convinced by any of the putative evidence put forth by theists."
The treatise offered is so spectacularly mired in religiosity that it cannot fathom things that are not religious proclamations. How did he get from "the world" is either theistic or accidental? As if there is no possible non-accidental source except his god claim. That's just pure indoctrination and made up religious dogma. Nothing more.
Could you please give a possible non-accidental source other than a theistic one?
When you put your hand on a hot stove and jerk it away, it's because it is meaningful to you. To overlook this basic kind of meaningfulness and insist on a supernatural meaning for everything, is just poppycock, pie in the sky, magical thinking. If the theist can get outside of this magical thinking even for a minute, hard for them to do admittedly as they compulsively spew dogma, they might see that blind religious assertions are completely unwarranted as a reasonable or evidence based explanation for the cosmos.
Well, if spewing dogma and magical thinking brings these folks joy and purpose, not sure what your problem is. Aren't you happy for them for having found joy and purpose in their life?
If we are trapped within the limits of our perception, and we are, this is true also for theists. They don't get to get around that fact by magic claims. Any revelation they claim to get directly from god is also a perception, and so cannot be trusted as reporting on anything about actual reality.
"Demonstrate that their is no evidence for the death and resurrection of Jesus" is a comical flipping of the burden of proof.
You left out an important part: He said demonstrate that there is no evidence for the resurrection of Jesus on the theistic assumption. The italicized part is crucial to the challenge.
The whole thing just smacks of, "I wanna believe, I wanna believe, I wanna believe ... I refuse to be reasonable on the subject of religion. Now watch me deviously construct arguments that support my wish."
This reveals a lot more about you than it does the author of the article in my opinion.
I think we might mean different things by “meaningful”. I am taking that to mean that there is an underlying purpose to the universe. If there is no such purpose, then that does not imply that musings about reality are ultimately futile. The universe is, to our perceptions, far from random. We can certainly talk about objective observations that we all agree upon. We can use those observations to derive a model of reality about the universe. If you want to call this meaning, then fine. But meani
Science is marvelous! And it advances by way of intelligent folks methodically and purposefully (intentionally) engaging the physical world with their cognitive faculties.
Here is a small sampling based on actual observations about our world that univocally seem to support the following:
Life comes from life (biogenesis)
Cats come from cats, dogs come from dogs, zebras come from zebras, etc.
An effect is never greater than its cause. (Or, to put it colloquially, "something can't give what it doesn't have.")
Information systems arise from other information systems.
Matter is causally effete. ("Matter and energy do not create information" - Dr. A. E. Wilder-Smith)
Science is marvelous!
Matter is causally effete. ("Matter and energy do not create information" - Dr. A. E. Wilder-Smith)
well, geezer... it has been shown that the side effects of an asteroid Impact strike, regardless of compound, is the spontaneous creation of Amino Acids... the basic building block of all organic life.
The bolded is quite a bold (haha) claim if the universe and everything in it is ultimately accidental. If the universe is indeed accidental/unintended then to say "THE purpose of life is X" is a category mistake. Saying an accidental event has a known purpose seems rather fantastic to me.
Not sure what problem you would have with this notion if it gives the person who believes it meaning in their life.
Perhaps it might be more on point for you to say, "I am not personally convinced by any of th
Are you even aware that religion and its epistemology has done some things in the world besides bring people joy and purpose? Let's see you list some of the appalling results of religion and religious thinking.
Are you even aware that religion and its epistemology has done some things in the world besides bring people joy and purpose? Let's see you list some of the appalling results of religion and religious thinking.
I'll gladly answer your question after you answer mine.
In case you missed it, I'll repeat it:
Well, if spewing dogma and magical thinking brings these folks joy and purpose, not sure what your problem is. Aren't you happy for them for having found joy and purpose in their life?
I'll gladly answer your question after you answer mine.
In case you missed it, I'll repeat it:
Well, if spewing dogma and magical thinking brings these folks joy and purpose, not sure what your problem is. Aren't you happy for them for having found joy and purpose in their life?
It isn't joy and purpose and you know it. It's hiding from fear, lying about reality, being insincere and hypocritical, being afraid not to be in the club of their society/family, indoctrination, stubbornness, denial, irrationality. Not one in 10,000 is serious at all about following the dictates of the religion. Not one in 10,000 reads their word of god or has any idea of the stuff that is in there other than a few catch phrases. All of them spend more time watching television than communing with god in his word. Religion after religion after religion demonstrates this. Studies demonstrate that their is no greater joy among the religious than the secular.
If someone says the purpose of their life is some magic story or another, it doesn't actually add meaning, joy, purpose ... and none of them act like it. It might add some comfort, based on illusion. None of them live like they actually believe it. How many believers are trying to die to get to heaven? Only the near psychotic ones. They belie their religious game with their actual attitude toward death, and also with how they live their life. Isn't it odd that the land with the most Christians in it is also the most materialist society in history? Religion is a gaming of reality.
If you are arguing that there is some utility to religion in that, say, it is the opiate of the masses, then true. That isn't joy and that isn't purpose. Neither are other opiates.
It isn't joy and purpose and you know it. It's hiding from fear, lying about reality, being insincere and hypocritical, being afraid not to be in the club of their society/family, indoctrination, stubbornness, denial, irrationality. Not one in 10,000 is serious at all about following the dictates of the religion. Not one in 10,000 reads their word of god or has any idea of the stuff that is in there other than a few catch phrases. All of them spend more time watching television than communing wi
People usually belong to the category of bitter complainers or the category of problem solvers. Guess which you act like?
Astounding that you even think you know what I know.
It's hiding from fear, lying about reality, being insincere and hypocritical, being afraid not to be in the club of their society/family, indoctrination, stubbornness, denial, irrationality.
Astounding that you have reduced religious belief to mere psychological reductionism.
Not one in 10,000 is serious at all about following the dictates of the religion.
Astounding stat. What is your source for this number?
Not one in 10,000 reads their word of god or has any idea of the stuff that is in there other than a few catch phrases.
Astrounding stat. What is your source for this number?
All of them spend more time watching television than communing with god in his word.
Astounding that you think that "all of them spend more time watching television." What is your source for this.
Religion after religion after religion demonstrates this. Studies demonstrate that their is no greater joy among the religious than the secular.
Would you please share links for some of these "studies."
If someone says the purpose of their life is some magic story or another, it doesn't actually add meaning, joy, purpose ... and none of them act like it.
Astounding that you think that "none of them act like it." After reading this, I now know that you are suffering from Faith Derangement Syndrome (FDS). (I can do psychological reductionism, too. haha)
It might add some comfort, based on illusion. None of them live like they actually believe it.
FDS again.
How many believers are trying to die to get to heaven? Only the near psychotic ones.
We finally agree on something!
They belie their religious game with their actual attitude toward death, and also with how they live their life. Isn't it odd that the land with the most Christians in it is also the most materialist society in history?
Odd indeed.
Religion is a gaming of reality.
It certainly can be; it depends on the religion in question.
If you are arguing that there is some utility to religion in that, say, it is the opiate of the masses, then true. That isn't joy and that isn't purpose. Neither are other opiates.
No, I was not arguing that there is utility in religion. (Although I think there can be.)
Are you even aware that religion and its epistemology has done some things in the world besides bring people joy and purpose? Let's see you list some of the appalling results of religion and religious thinking.
It is historically accurate to say that religions and religious thinking have done wonderful things and appalling things.
Speaking as a Christian, every Christian who has done evil things was disobeying Jesus.
It is historically accurate to say that religions and religious thinking have done wonderful things and appalling things.
Speaking as a Christian, every Christian who has done evil things was disobeying Jesus.
1. Killing every child and fetus on earth was moral, holy and just. Right??
2. Blind obedience is a virtue, right?
Astounding that you even think you know what I know.
Astounding that you have reduced religious belief to mere psychological reductionism.
Astounding stat. What is your source for this number?
Astrounding stat. What is your source for this number?
Astounding that you think that "all of them spend more time watching television." What is your source for this.
Would you please share links for some of these "studies."
Astounding that you think that "none of them act like it." After reading this, I
All I can say is that you are easily astounded by reality, though not by magic claims. And of course your religion is the only one that isn't a gaming of reality, right? Everybody else is going to hell. And you know that because a 1st Century barbaric belief system says so. Why don't you check out the rest of what they believed then?
Yes, God killing every child and fetus on earth was moral, holy and just.
2. Blind obedience is a virtue, right?
No, I do not believe that blind obedience is a virtue. Just like I do not believe that blind faith is a virtue.
All I can say is that you are easily astounded by reality, though not by magic claims. And of course your religion is the only one that isn't a gaming of reality, right? Everybody else is going to hell. And you know that because a 1st Century barbaric belief system says so. Why don't you check out the rest of what they believed then?
After you answer my questions, I will gladly answer yours.*
I would like to have an equitable conversation; but that can't happen if you expect me to answer your questions without you also answering mine.
Unfortunately, due to your FDS (Faith Derangement Syndrome), I feel that perhaps you aren't even capable at this point in your life journey of a good faith discussion on this topic.
Please surprise me and prove me wrong, because I suspect you are very intelligent and have some insights on this topic that could result in a fruitful conversation.
edit:
*In case your forgot, I asked you to source your statistics that you quoted in post #2065. After you do that, we can continue this conversation if you'd like to.
Being in a religion is problem solving, and not being in one means you aren't a problem solver ... right??
The problem solvers are the shepherds who are “in it”, forging the path in the chaotic unknown for the sheep.
You are sitting on the sideline constantly bitching and moaning about the sheep (as well as the shepherds who are actually doing the work).
The problem solvers are the shepherds who are “in it”, forging the path in the chaotic unknown for the sheep.
You are sitting on the sideline constantly bitching and moaning about the sheep (as well as the shepherds who are actually doing the work).
If you are incapable of being a good sheep, then you won’t become the good wolf.
If you are incapable of being the good wolf, then you won’t become the good shepherd.
————
The good sheep makes the other sheep his siblings.
Those who don’t do this become the evil wolf who ravishes the sheep.
After you answer my questions, I will gladly answer yours.*
I would like to have an equitable conversation; but that can't happen if you expect me to answer your questions without you also answering mine.
Unfortunately, due to your FDS (Faith Derangement Syndrome), I feel that perhaps you aren't even capable at this point in your life journey of a good faith discussion on this topic.
Please surprise me and prove me wrong, because I suspect you are very intelligent and have some insights on this t
I have faith that if I say a prayer or kiss a donkey (a 1st Century medical practice), my cancer will be cured. But you know that won't make it happen. So who is deranged about faith. Thanks for pointing that up, but it backfires a bit as magic claims are want to do.
[QUOTE=geezerchess;58925247]Yes, God killing every child and fetus on earth was moral, holy and just./QUOTE]
There you have it. Indoctrination at its finest, at its purest. Some would say an abject sacrificing of one's agency, judgment, morality ... to a religious doctrine no matter what it says. Because maybe, just maybe, in my belief system something like wearing mixed fabrics is far worse than infanticide. Those infants are so effing guilty you know ... the barbarians said they were and I believe it.
[QUOTE=geezerchess;58925247]Yes, God killing every child and fetus on earth was moral, holy and just./QUOTE]
There you have it. Indoctrination at its finest, at its purest. Some would say an abject sacrificing of one's agency, judgment, morality ... to a religious doctrine no matter what it says. Because maybe, just maybe, in my belief system something like wearing mixed fabrics is far worse than infanticide. Those infants are so effing guilty you know ... the barbarians said they were and I beli
Unlike you, I endeavor to answer questions that I'm asked. It's not all that hard. Now, please answer the questions that I asked you.
If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to reiterate the questions I asked that you didn't answer. Please let me know. Thanks!
