GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

^^^ You're admitting that greater skillsets did it and played in a ball movement system that great teams have, but never a ball-dominator, which is why they're the inferior skillset and not in the top 10.

Other skillsets can play ball movement, but not a ball-dominator - this makes sense and is supported by the entirety of history

Again, that's an obvious lie because they never have (0 for 12)... Only jumpshooters and bigs have, which is why they're the inferior skillset (12 for 12)

Nope. We’ve been over this and you’ve already lost. You’re defining 2 point jump shooting after catching a pass to be the “greater skillset” because Jordan happened to do that more often than LeBron. If you actually played basketball at any type of competent level, you’d immediately understand how stupid that statement is, and that there are other important skills in basketball as well.

Jordan and Kobe have never won a championship without Phil Jackson and the triangle (0 for 13), which proves a ball movement scheme with the proper elite players (Pippen, Shaq, Rodman, etc) was absolutely required for them to win. LeBron, having the more versatile skill set, was able to win without that on 3 separate franchises, proving that you lost again. Better be careful fallguy or I’m going to give your bench spot away to someone less useless.

I realized where we're getting tripped up... It's only the ball-dominators that need to adjust, but they can't and never have, while MJ, Curry and Duncan were viewed as tremendous off-ball players in college that always fit into a ball movement system.

MJ's first coaches in the NBA didn't know if he could even handle the ball because Dean Smith and Bobby Knight ran strict ball movement systems... It was considered a sea change to move him to point guard in 89' and all of Jordan's coaches in the 80's said he was an off-ball player (Loughery, Collins, Dean Smith, Bobby Knight).. So again, highly-assisted skillsets such as jumpshooters (Curry, MJ) or bigs (Duncan, Kareem) can run ball movement systems as required of great teams, while ball-dominators can't and never have.

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^^^ A ball movement scheme... That's a low bar.. It's literally no bar.

So Jordan needs "a ball movement scheme", which every NBA coach has, and which allows less need for talent, and then Jordan needs low producing role players like fossil Rodman, who was worse than Ben Wallace or Shaq that Lebron had... Or Pippen (19 on 42% in 6 Finals).

Otoh, Lebron's inferior skillset doesn't allow a ball movement scheme, so he needs arguably the most stacked rosters ever, yet his ring frequency is half of MJ's and he has losing records with every type of good team.. This includes preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and a record 3 straight upset losses from 09' to 11'.
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You have provided quotes that MJ’s first coaches didn’t know if he could handle the ball when he first came to the NBA.

How many quotes can you find of LeBron’s former coaches saying that they don’t believe he could play in or adapt to a ball movement offense? Could you please link a few of them here? If you could dig up quotes about Jordan from the mid 80’s before the internet existed, there must be TONS of videos of former coaches and players saying LeBron would not have the capacity to play in a ball movement offense. Let’s see a few of them: I’d like to hear their reasoning.

So LeBron HAS played in a ball movement scheme, just not one with a coach as good as Phil Jackson? That makes sense actually, since he has a relatively high assisted rate for someone playing point guard/forward, and he has had nine seasons with an assisted rate >40%. The only reason his career assisted rate is slightly lower than Kobe’s is because LeBron played in a different system as opposed to Phil Jackson and the triangle, with different coaches, and with a different role (point guard/forward) within those systems.

Which is what fidstar and I have been saying. Looks like we win. Thank you for admitting it.

I think I know where we’re getting tripped up, and I’ve mentioned it before actually.

Fallguy, you think that if we put LeBron in the triangle, we’d have to put him in Jordan’s shooting guard spot, don’t you? That’s why you don’t think LeBron could “play in the triangle”.

Can you try to conceptualize the following?:

LeBron doesn’t play shooting guard. He would play either small forward or point guard in the triangle. The 4 would be possible too. He wouldn’t be playing Michael Jordan’s position, he’d be playing Scottie Pippen’s position. And that’s ok: there’s more to basketball than assisted 2 point jump shots.

I agree that Jordan is a better shooting guard than LeBron would be. Do you understand that that is an incredibly limited way to understand the game of basketball (that only shooting guard and center matter)? There are other positions too and LeBron would play one of those (because he does; he’s literally never played shooting guard but he’s played the other 4).

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BY IMPOSING SPOT-UP ROLES, LEBRON LOWERED ALL HIS TEAMMATES' ASSISTS

ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3 (with Lebron)
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6 (with Lebron)
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3

11-14' Love................ 3.0
15-18' Love................ 2.1 (with Lebron)
19-21' Love................ 2.8

05-08' Mo................... 5.7
09-10' Mo................... 4.6 (with Lebron)
11-13' Mo................... 5.3

09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6 (with Lebron)

99-04' Snow................ 6.9
06-07' Snow................ 4.1 (with Lebron)

01-05' Hughes........... 3.8
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3 (with Lebron)

2018 Ingram.............. 3.9
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0 (with Lebron)
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2

2019 Kuzma............... 2.5 (with Lebron)
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8

2018 Ball..................... 7.2
2019 Ball..................... 5.4 (with Lebron)
20-22' Ball................... 6.1

00-09' Jamison........... 1.8
2010 Jamison............. 1.3 (with Lebron)
11-12' Jamison........... 1.9

04-10' Wade............... 6.6
11-14' Wade............... 4.7 (with Lebron)

19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2 (with Lebron)

09-21' Westbrook....... 8.5
2022 Westbrook..........7.1 (with Lebron)

15-18'' KCP.................. 2.0
19-21' KCP................... 1.6 (with Lebron)
22-25' KCP................... 2.2

It's a mathematical fact that forwards have assisted rates between 50-80%, so a forward with a 30-40% assisted rate like Lebron (or even 45% of we're including non-prime years) gives teammates less opportunity to assist compared to playing alongside forwards with normal (higher) assisted rates.. So it's mathematical fact that Lebron lowers everyone's assists and the stats show that (see previous post)..

So Lebron has never played ball movement because his skillset literally prevents it.. His skillset of lowering everyone's assists and imposing spot-up roles has handcuffed every coach and resulted in team assist deficits for every series loss of his career... The low team assists and ball movement-killing effect is why ball-dominators have an inferior skillset to other skillsets that CAN run ball movement and therefore have great teams.

Are you kidding me?

Love, Chalmers, Bosh, Shumpert, Ingram, Wade, IT and others have said that he stifles their game - it's a well-known theme.

Furthermore, Blatt tried to install a ball movement offense but got fired for it - it's well-documented, so Google it.

Luke Walton was fired for the same reason - Google it.

Lebron famously tried to fire Spolestra but Pat Riley wouldn't let him... For the same reason!!! He didn't want to run ball movement... So Spolestra did the best he could despite Lebron cratering Wade and Bosh's assists, role and stats - this hindered ball movement from getting anywhere near the Spurs.

Nope. Pippen had 60% assisted rate in the triangle and the triangle doesn't use primary ball-handlers and low assisted players... That's how we know that Lebron's low assisted rates and dribble-heavy rim attack would never be part of the triangle..

His 30-45% assisted rates would give teammates less opportunity to assist then Pippen's 60% rates, thus lowering everyone's assists, as the post above shows.

Lebron's drive-and-kick skillset is simply a different offense entirely and you can't do both - you either move the ball or you let Lebron do the losing drive-and-kick.. Derek Fisher and Paxson were spot-up shooters, so there was no point guard role.. The ball just MOVED and no one dribbled - it's called goat basketball - watch the tape.

I was just checking that you believed a two way wing that averaged around 20/6/4 could be a franchise player.

Bit sad that Kobe at 31 (e.g. prime) wasn't even a Top 2 player in the league, but somehow is the 2nd GOAT.

I like how MJ who was seen as the best one on one player in the 80s wasn't known to have good handle. Wow, those 80s players must have sucked.

Fallguy,
Are you intelligent enough to understand that these are two different statements?:

A) LeBron James stifles a player’s game.
B) LeBron James would not be capable of playing in a ball movement offense (like the triangle).

Post the quotes of the players and the coaches saying LeBron James is incapable of playing in a ball movement offense. We need to make sure this isn’t situation number 10,000 where they said one thing, but you are lying and claiming they are saying something entirely different. (Since you aren’t capable of telling the truth, I’m guessing it’s that.)

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-sc...

Scottie Pippen, teammate of Michael Jordan, talking about how it was hard to play alongside Michael Jordan because he demanded so many touches. Primarily early in his career, which would be before the triangle was implemented.

Looks like fallguy got everything backwards yet again, and when we fact check him on it, his lies are exposed. Sorry fallguy, better luck next time. Keep posting though: I’m looking forward to taking a **** on your next set of dumbass arguments.

Sure, if they have a peak ability of 26/8/10 on 55% in the Finals. and 30-38 ppg in various playoff series overall, or 27 ppg on various playoff runs to make multiple Finals.

So it's completely legit and your perception of the game was wrong AGAIN..... ANOTHER one... smh

Otoh, a peak of barely 20 points of transition play and worse than Jeff Green outside a system that he learned alongside the goat - yeah, not a franchise player or anywhere near... Not even a 2nd option unless he was alongside the GOAT scorer.

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Summary regarding the only suboptimal skillsets in basketball

High-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates in spot-up roles and lower their assists, which causes low team assist rankings over time.. The reduction of assists and spot-up roles are most frequent alongside ball-dominators that don't start at point guard like Lebron or Paolo, since their ball-domination and low frequency of assisted buckets are the most abnormal for their position.. This gives teammates less opportunity to assist and leaves them in spot-up roles more often than playing alongside normal forwards that have higher assisted rates, or ball-dominators that start at point guard where the ball-domination is less abnormal... Ball-dominators that start at point guard like SGA and Luka still have the high volume of unassisted buckets that impose spot-up roles, but this style isn't as abnormal for their position as Paolo or Lebron, so it isn't as detrimental to teammates in reducing their assists and causing low assist teams.

lol, citing a laughing stock like pippen, who thought he was scorned in "The Last Dance", and had the fastest growth that anyone ever had alongside Jordan... 🙂

So I win lol... You should give up, or I guess this is like giving up..

History shows that Pippen's peak was Jeff Green outside the triangle, and around 20 ppg in the triangle, with or without Jordan.... And Pippen had worst-ever efficiency, so he couldn't even handle 20 ppg, which required Jordan to produce goat stats and carry-jobs to win.. This includes 41 ppg to 3-peat, while Pippen shot 46.9 TS and therefore couldn't handle additional load.. Carry on

Could you imagine if MJ would've had a legit number two? Someone like, I don't know, maybe a real stud like George Lynch.

Now there's a player.

Imagine if MJ had a teammate that could dominate, "take over", or command a double team.. He's the only top 10 candidate that never had that... Accordingly, he's the only top 10 candidate that had to carry the load for his entire career, while still being an all-time defender the entire time as well.. He set the goat standard, which is an unattainable one, i.e. multiple 3-peats, 70 wins and title, goat MVP caliber (MVP + title + scoring champ + 1st team defense, or MVP + DPOY)

Right, someone like George Lynch.

That's a guy who should be cited as gospel.