GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
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Here's Carmelo Anthony stating how Phil thought that only certain skillsets fit the triangle:
"When Phil came to New York, he said that he needed to bring in the guys that could fit the triangle.. He was like 'this guys doesn't fit... this guy doesn't fit either - I don't want these type of guys, etc'.... So Phil slowly taking guys out and putting in his pieces that he thought would work in the triangle".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpl0YJYT...
Carmelo and JJ Redick also say that the triangle is basically a dogsh*t and it needs goat bailout artists to save many possessions throughout the game (like Kobe or MJ).
Fallguy,Are you intelligent enough to understand that these are two different statements?:A) LeBron James stifles a player’s game.B) LeBron James would not be capable of playing in a ball movement offense (like the triangle).Post the quotes of the players and the coaches saying LeBron James is incapable of playing in a ball movement offense. We need to make sure this isn&
Literally every player, coach, media and fan says that Lebron needs the ball in his hands to be effective and produce to his max ability.
This is common knowledge and has been stated many billions of times around the world by coaches, players, media and fans.
You seriously want me to find quotes of people saying this?.. Should I find quotes saying that water is wet too??
Ultimately, certain skillsets can play without the ball and with the great ball movement that great teams require, and some skillsets can't, such as high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) like Lebron..
The historical record and science back this up - i.e. ball-dominators have never run a ball movement system, while it's physically impossible anyway (ball-domination and ball movement cannot happen at the same time).
You not going to address the double standard of lauding George Lynch's words while completely discrediting Pippen's?
I'd consider a ban at this point tbh. Prbly the most trolly hypocrisy in the history of 2p2.
Shumpert, Love, Bosh, Wade, and Chalmers have all stated that Lebron stifles players and is hard to play with, while literally every fan, player, media and coach in the world has said that "Lebron needs the ball in his hands".
Having the ball in their hands is the skillset of every high-scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator) like SGA, Luka, Harden, etc., which is why they can't play in a ball movement system that great teams require.. Infact, ball-dominators have such a weak brand of ball (imposing spot-up roles) that they never even won with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, let alone produce a dynasty or dominant champion.
You not going to address the double standard of lauding George Lynch's words while completely discrediting Pippen's?
I'd consider a ban at this point tbh. Prbly the most trolly hypocrisy in the history of 2p2.
All of Jordan's teammates grew by leaps and bounds alongside him, especially Pippen, so Pippen's words are based on scorn and contrary to the historical record, while Lynch's words have been repeated by many of Lebron's teammates and fully-supported by the historical record, i.e. zero players grew from single-digits to meaningful producers while Lebron was the team's leading scorer, aka zero young player development in 22 years.. It's because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents elite roster construction, young player development, chemistry, and great teams, or winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player.
Anything else?? We good?
How can every other top 10 candidate have a teammate that required a double team yet did so with normal rosters of 1 franchise player?
Just say Jordan fills up the top 10 by himself and no one else should be on the same list. The ultimate carry job.
How can every other top 10 candidate have a teammate that required a double team yet did so with normal rosters of 1 franchise player?
Just say Jordan fills up the top 10 by himself and no one else should be on the same list.
Jamal Murray requires a double-team and can "take over", yet he isn't a franchise player.
Khris Middleton has 7 playoff series of 24-26 ppg, while often playing the "closer" role and taking over with big scoring - but again, he isn't a franchise player.
Kyrie Irving can "take over" and destroy league MVPs, but he probably isn't quite a franchise player, or at least not a good one.
Terry Porter shot 53% on threes with 6 attempts in the WCF and averaged 26/4/8 to carry the Blazers to the 92' Finals... But again, he isn't a franchise player... Jaylen Brown isn't a very good option for franchise player either.
Ultimately, everyone in history had elite-scoring teammates and good scoring help, except MJ... MJ was stuck with a transition player and defender that wasn't available in the 2nd half of tight playoff games and someone as marginal as Kukoc often supplanted him as 2nd option.. Kukoc was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the entire 98' Playoffs... Meanwhile, Pippen could go entire series without scoring a single clutch point (last 5 within 5).
Sure, if they have a peak ability of 26/8/10 on 55% in the Finals. and 30-38 ppg in various playoff series overall, or 27 ppg on various playoff runs to make multiple Finals.So it's completely legit and your perception of the game was wrong AGAIN..... ANOTHER one... smhOtoh, a peak of barely 20 points of transition play and worse than Jeff Green outside a system that he learned
Hard to score a lot of points when playing in an era it was hard for a team to score 100 points playing alongside a ballhog shooting 25 times a game.
Much easier in today's game (Beginner format I believe).
Also, fun fact. Butler is a regular sub 40% assisted guy in the playoffs. Never going to be successful. Pippen is more of a team guy. Winner in fact.
Jamal Murray requires a double-team and can "take over", yet he isn't a franchise player.Khris Middleton has 7 playoff series of 24-26 ppg, while often playing the "closer" role and taking over with big scoring - but again, he isn't a franchise player.Kyrie Irving can "take over" and destroy league MVPs, but he probably isn't quite a franchise player, or at least not a good one
So Jokic, Giannis, LeBron, and Drexler (plus Tatum) are in your top ten?
Otherwise how is that a reply to what I asked about how your top ten guys won on a team with them as the single franchise player, yet had teammates who got doubled? Seems like a contradiction.
Also I doubt any of those guys you listed ever faced a double team when the alpha was out there too fwiw.
Ultimately, everyone in history had elite-scoring teammates and good scoring help, except MJ... MJ was stuck with a transition player and defender that wasn't available in the 2nd half of tight playoff games and someone as marginal as Kukoc often supplanted him as 2nd option.. Kukoc was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the entire 98' Playoffs... Meanwhile, Pippen could go entire series without scoring a single clutch point (last 5 within 5).
So basically
Sure, if they have a peak ability of 26/8/10 on 55% in the Finals. and 30-38 ppg in various playoff series overall, or 27 ppg on various playoff runs to make multiple Finals.So it's completely legit and your perception of the game was wrong AGAIN..... ANOTHER one... smhOtoh, a peak of barely 20 points of transition play and worse than Jeff Green outside a system that he learned
Did Kevin love ever did that ?
About bosh ?
U did called them franchise player right ?
Everyone knows the post-baseball Jordan from 96' to 98' was below the pre-baseball version in the 80's or early 90's... That's why 85-89' was compared to 91-93' so it's apples to apples (pre-baseball vs pre-baseball).
So again, you guys are wrong.. Everything stands.
Ah I see .
Mj in less then 2 years got much weaker from summer 1993 to summer 1995 ? lol .
Ah yes rookie mj in 1985 was better then mj in 1996 ?
So at that time in 1996 , mj was not the goat anymore , despite being mvp and all that other $h!t .
U admit the reason that bull team was one of the best ever it’s because mj had great players surrounding him right ?
I mean how can mj simultaneously be not great and get 72win with mediocre teammates?
Imagine how mj to win 62 wins with Rodman and no pippen for half a season in 1998 .
Ho no no wait I got it , I got it
…the nba sucked in the 90s…no talents too permit a subpar mj to win all of this ??
lol FG agrees the 90s nba were terrible in talent !
Ah yes Shaq in your top10 and get get swept by a subpar mj with garbage teammates ? lol ….
At least one thing is sure , past 35, Lebron clearly a better player then a subpar mj at the same age lol .
Your own words ….
The stupidity u can spew is amazing .
You proved yourself how your thinking brings you back to agree with all the LeBron slurpers that say the 90s sucked !
All team mj faced in the “post” goat mj faced were garbage too and Lebron faced much tougher competition in the finals .
U basically agree today what you always were disagreeing all those prior years…
Mj 1996-98 competition was weak just to prove mj inside the triangle was shooting more then outside the triangle lol .
How far can u go to not lose 1 argument lol …
It's funny isn't it?? I'm like that big kid in grade school whose grin gets bigger and bigger as he grounds and pounds some clueless punk into oblivion.. hehe
Sounds u got beat up so bad in school you don’t even remember what really happened and think you were the ones giving the punches …
I forgot FG .
You don’t use stats of mj for 1996-98 because it shouldn’t apply but yet u always uses past 35 years old lebron to proved everything on how bad he is ….
Again double standard …
..Here's Carmelo Anthony stating how Phil thought that only certain skillsets fit the triangle:
I do think LeBron is probably more effective on-ball rather than off-ball. That’s because he may be the greatest on-ball player of all time.
This is not the same thing as saying he could not play in a ball movement offense like the triangle.
Since this has been stated “billions of times”, can you post a few of them from NBA coaches or players? The reason I am asking you to do this is that typically, when people are pulling random bs out of their ass, they claim that it’s intuitively obvious or everyone already knows it or says it. Which is what you happen to be doing here. And since you have lied about literally everything else, I’m simply asking you to post a few quotes to show that you’re not also lying here. Just a few out of billions. Should be really easy.
All of Jordan's teammates grew by leaps and bounds alongside him, especially Pippen, so Pippen's words are based on scorn and contrary to the historical record, while Lynch's words have been repeated by many of Lebron's teammates and fully-supported by the historical record, i.e. zero players grew from single-digits to meaningful producers while Lebron was the team's leading sc
I believe someone else pointed this out to you already, but just to clarify: you are saying Pippen grew by leaps and bounds next to Jordan… into a terrible second (or third) option that had to be carried…?
Is that what you’re saying?
So Jokic, Giannis, LeBron, and Drexler (plus Tatum) are in your top ten?
Otherwise how is that a reply to what I asked about how your top ten guys won on a team with them as the single franchise player, yet had teammates who got doubled? Seems like a contradiction.
Because guys can dominate and get doubled and still not be a franchise player that is asked to build a team from scratch, or even a 1st option, such as Middletown, Murray, Kyrie, Jaylen Brown - there's levels of domination and those guys aren't quite good enough to build around as the top guy where everyone must be worse than them.. Kyrie and Brown are arguable, but I doubt anyone thinks Murray is a franchise player despite frequently dominating and taking pressure off Jokic on their title run
Hard to score a lot of points when playing in an era it was hard for a team to score 100 points playing alongside a ballhog shooting 25 times a game.
Much easier in today's game (Beginner format I believe).
Also, fun fact. Butler is a regular sub 40% assisted guy in the playoffs. Never going to be successful. Pippen is more of a team guy. Winner in fact.
Butler went toe-to-toe with Lebron in the Finals or other top players, while Pippen was never expected to compete with the best players, i.e. there was never a promo that read "big forward matchup - Pippen vs Barkley" - that never happened because Pippen was a transition player and defender that wasn't expected to compete with the top players... It would be like saying "Big matchup - Draymond vs Kobe" - this would never happen because Draymond isn't viewed as a scorer or top option.. Ditto Pippen.. Pippen can't dominate, while Butler can - Butler led 2 injured teams to the Finals.. Butler compares to Drexler, although he's easily worse than imo because Drexler is criminally underated.
Winning with normal rosters is just 1 of my top 10 criteria, and not everyone in my top 10 fulfills all 4 criteria - the only guys that won with normal rosters are MJ, Jokic, Duncan, Wilt, and Curry.
But the other guys fulfill 2 or more the other criteria of producing great chemistry, great teams, and carrying the star category of scoring (thereby needing less stars and allowing GM to get defensive help).
Otoh, Lebron and all ball-dominators are 0 for 4 as 1st option in producing great chemistry, or great teams, or carrying the scoring load, or winning with normal rosters.
Did Kevin love ever did that ?
About bosh ?
U did called them franchise player right ?
Love and Bosh achieved elite stats in the regular season and then sacrificed their prime years for bron-ball.. They were elite producers that were tasked with building teams from scratch, aka franchise player
Get back to me when Disturbed destroys Lebrons champions banners.
https://www.stereogum.com/2300534/distur...
MJ GOAT
Love and Bosh achieved elite stats in the regular season and then sacrificed their prime years for bron-ball.. They were elite producers that were tasked with building teams from scratch, aka franchise player
It’s not clear to me how you’re defining franchise players. Chris Bosh peaked as roughly a top 20-25 player. Like average all-star level. I don’t think Toronto made the playoffs very many times while he was there, and when they did they didn’t do anything.
Kevin Love had one mega-outlier season where he put up excellent numbers, another very good season, but not much else notable. Missed a lot of time (due to injuries if I recall). And he never even made the playoffs till Cleveland.
If either of these guys led playoff pushes I’d say yeah sure, but they didn’t and their numbers weren’t good enough to build a successful team around (as evidenced by their lack of playoff success).
Pippen easily better than both of these guys by pretty much any metric and it’s not all that close. I’d probably take Rodman over both of them too for a lot of roster constructions, given the nature of 3rd options and/or role players. It seems your player criteria shifts around depending on who you’re arguing for.
It’s not clear to me how you’re defining franchise players. Chris Bosh peaked as roughly a top 20-25 player. Like average all-star level. I don’t think Toronto made the playoffs very many times while he was there, and when they did they didn’t do anything.Kevin Love had one mega-outlier season where he put up excellent numbers, another very good season, but not much else notabl
Can you imagine thinking pippen wouldn’t be an amazing 3rd option and yet have love and bosh has franchise players ….
Because u know , pippen isn’t a franchise player .
FG is the goat of contradiction .
Love and Bosh achieved elite stats in the regular season and then sacrificed their prime years for bron-ball.. They were elite producers that were tasked with building teams from scratch, aka franchise player
I see so all of this :
Sure, if they have a peak ability of 26/8/10 on 55% in the Finals. and 30-38 ppg in various playoff series overall, or 27 ppg on various playoff runs to make multiple Finals.So it's completely legit and your perception of the game was wrong AGAIN..... ANOTHER one... smhOtoh, a peak of barely 20 points of transition play and worse than Jeff Green outside a system that he learned
Which I was responding too was hor$e$h!t ?
U did not mean it ….
Now playoffs means nothing , 1 or 2 good regular seasons is all that is needed .
I do think LeBron is probably more effective on-ball rather than off-ball. That’s because he may be the greatest on-ball player of all time.This is not the same thing as saying he could not play in a ball movement offense like the triangle.Since this has been stated “billions of times”, can you post a few of them from NBA coaches or players? The reason I am asking you to do thi
Again, everyone says that lebron "needs" the ball in his hands... "Needs" is the word that is mostly used.. So since people say that he needs the ball, this means that he can't really play off-ball.. This assessment by everyone that he can't play off-ball is statistically-backed by his lowest-ever assisted rate for his position (the most abnormal ball-dominance ever), which gives teammates the least opportunity to assist, thereby creating the low assist teams and team assist deficits in every series loss of Lebron's playoff career.. So the facts all flow together nicely.
I believe someone else pointed this out to you already, but just to clarify: you are saying Pippen grew by leaps and bounds next to Jordan… into a terrible second (or third) option that had to be carried…?
Is that what you’re saying?
Pippen grew from a 7.9 ppg rookie to Iguodala or Larry Nance-caliber of skill, performance and impact.. This is what the caliber of his performance shows, and status on the court, along with the stats.
This Larry Nance-caliber was truly a mirage however, as Pippen was a system player, which means that he was a non-scorer that learned how to get buckets in a particular system - so not any system.. Outside the triangle that he grew up in and learned to get 15-20 of mostly transition, Pippen was worse than Jeff Green.. This is the historical record.
But again, Pippen still grew immensely alongside Jordan, while rookie Pippen probably doesn't develop at all if he was buried on the bench of a contender.. He also wouldn't grow alongside a ball-dominator that made him stand in the corner and/or needed him to be a ready-made star and finisher like Worthy/Kareem/Wade/Luka/AD/etc.
I see so all of this :
Which I was responding too was hor$e$h!t ?
U did not mean it ….
Now playoffs means nothing , 1 or 2 good regular seasons is all that is needed .
Fidstar was crapping on Butler's regular season numbers after I called Butler a franchise player, but Love/Bosh have those great regular season numbers... I only talked about Butler's playoff performance because it offsets his lackluster regular seasons.
Because guys can dominate and get doubled and still not be a franchise player that is asked to build a team from scratch, or even a 1st option, such as Middletown, Murray, Kyrie, Jaylen Brown - there's levels of domination and those guys aren't quite good enough to build around as the top guy where everyone must be worse than them.. Kyrie and Brown are arguable, but I doubt any
Ievin love is franchise player but not Kyrie and get why Lebron won a ring in Cleveland like u love to argue ?
Because of amazing Kyrie or love ?
Kyrie below bosh really ?
Jaylen brown can’t be a franchise player but love and bosh would ?
Yeah I mean he only won mvp final while bosh and live would never be able to do ….
But I forgot for too 10 playoffs is all that matters but for deciding franchise players it doesn’t despite a previous post u only talk about postflop performance …
I have no idea how u can find your way home from work with such contradictions and turnaround…
