GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Which year ? 1967 ?
The year he had 2 all star and one of those being nba2 for 7 years straight ?
Ending up being the final mvp ???
4 players with over 18+ ppg on the team ?
3 hof on a team is a normal roaster + another guy not long ago was amazing being another all of famer (Cunningham ) ?

But Lebron having Kyrie (not a franchise player you said ) and love wouldn’t be consider a normal roaster ?

Jfc you say nonsense …

So 1 or 2 good reg season without any playoffs luster is a franchise player to you ?

How the f pippen isn’t then ?
3 years nba1, dpoy2 twice another dpoy 4 , with 20 ppg average !?!
He was 8th scorer in the league and 15th , 2 of those years !!
Please don’t bring me your $h!t about playoffs performance, you just admit it’s irrelevant ffs…

Are u Insane or trolling ????
I’m not even arguing my own arguments -> I’m using yours and it’s contradictions all over the place….. By your own blind hate !!!!

A franchise player can be demonstrated in a few key ways:

Firstly, they must have actually done it, i.e. a team was built around them... Most good players had long enough careers that they have ample time for a team to say "you're the guy that we're building around"... So the horse's mouth is always a good source or piece of evidence - i.e. if the dealmakers (front office) say that you're the franchise, then that speaks for itself... Love, Bosh, and Butler had this.. The market talks and sets the value.

Secondly, aside from the rare floor general, everyone on the team will be a worse scorer than the franchise player, so if they lack elite scoring ability, then the team will have a serious lack of talent - i.e. elite scorers allow there to be good scorers below them, which gives the team maximum talent capacity to build.... Of course, if the top player isn't a great scorer, then you almost have to restrict the players that you pursue to maintain the player's top spot, which no GM would do obviously.

So again, if the top guy lacks elite scoring ability, the team will lack talent, and that's what we saw with the 94' Bulls.. They were the only team in the league that lacked a 2nd scorer, so they fell from goat dynasty to 2nd Round loser and barely .500 in less than 18 months..

They lacked a 2nd scorer because MJ left, but the Bulls were the only contender that lacked a third scorer during the 1st three-peat... Meanwhile, any 2nd scorer in 94' would've supplanted Pippen and made him the 2nd option again, so that's why Pippen isn't a franchise player... This is in addition to the Bulls never once saying that Pippen was the franchise player, or officially designating that role onto him as teams typically do.. Otoh, Love had elite scoring ability and dominated, so you could fill out the roster with other good scorers that wouldn't supplant Love, while the Wolves designated him their franchise player...

Unfortunately, we never got to see Love's best years because they disappeared into "bron-ball".. However, Love was similar to Bosh, KAT, or AD because these dominant players make All-NBA without playoff success, since everyone knows they're elite-producers... Otoh, secondary producers like Klay, Pippen, Parker, Ginobili, Pau, Dumars and Worthy need the winning spotlight of titles to make All-NBA.. It's a pretty big distinction.. Love also made 2 All-NBA's, so he wasn't a one-off and carried the Wolves for years.

TLDR: a franchise player is a guy was built around during his career, and they also have elite scoring ability (so there can still be good scorers below the top guys, which gives the team maximum talent capacity to build)... Making All-NBA without needing winning spotlight of titles is a good indicator as well..

Can you please cite these sources where “everyone” says LeBron cannot or could not adapt to a ball movement offense? Note I’m not asking for quotes saying LeBron is better with the ball in his hands. I am also not asking you to tell me that “everyone says it”. I’m asking for a citation, quotes from coaches and players with NBA experience, saying LeBron could not play in a ball movement offense. Like the quotes you had from coaches of MJ in the 1980’s.

The purpose of citations is to verify and confirm that what the person is saying is true, and not outright lying. I’m asking for a handful of quotes from these billions of people who say this; that should be trivial. Just to confirm you’re not lying. You would like to confirm you’re not lying, wouldn’t you, fallguy?

Notice how no one has seen Lebron lately - he hasn't been at the games and isn't out about town at his favorite steakhouse... That's because he's currently in a lab somewhere refilling his gills with HCG - I've deduced that this the trick to his athletic longevity.

When I was reading about the specific products that his bestie Randy Mims purchased from the Biogenesis co-founder (the biggest PED supplier to athletes ever), I read that he purchased peptides, which doesn't sound too special, and also testosterone... But the interesting thing was the HCG (wtf?)... It turns out that HCG is a pregnancy medication that turns women into animals so they can have triplets and quadruplets, etc.. But in men, it acts as a testosterone booster that is better than just adding testosterone.. Mims also purchased blood draws, which I'm not sure what that is - drawing blood I guess, but why would they need to draw blood out without replacing it.

Anyway, this is what Lebron is currently doing during this "injury" break, so expect him to come back super-swole and playing like he's 25 years old, just like every other time he took a "break".

This is the man you guys support. A man that will return juiced to the gills and ready to help his manufactured super-team of opposing franchise players trample the league.. A completely manufactured Manchurian goat.

I love this thread

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As the quote shows below, Lebron isn't an off-ball threat in the halfcourt and simply a transition guy, which gets shut down in the playoffs against teams that care and are trying to win and get back on defense:

My quotes of Collins and Loughery merely stated that Jordan was an off-ball player to provide evidence of Jordan's high assisted rate in the 80's (and therefore perfect fit for the triangle).

Otoh, there are no such quotes about Lebron that he plays off-ball, and all the quotes say that he "needs" the ball (not just that he's a little better with it like you tried to twist it into).. It matters that Lebron isn't elite off-ball because history shows that every ball movement system needs elite off-ball players, while every dynasty and dominant champion needed these ball movement systems and all-time off-ballers like Curry, MJ, Duncan, Jokic, Shaq, or Durant... Accordingly, Lebron's off-ball game doesn't qualify for a ball movement system as required by great teams.

In addition to everyone saying that Lebron "needs" the ball (and therefore lacks the elite off-ball game for a ball movement system and great team), they say that he stifles teammates, which they wouldn't say if he was elite off-ball and could play in a ball movement system like Curry or MJ.. It's actually interesting that Lebron STILL isn't playing in a ball movement system because it's Luka-ball!!... Luka's presence lets Lebron go off-the-catch in transition more (as the picture shows above)... Lebron simply cannot play in a ball movement system as a top option because he lacks the elite off-ball game required.

Lebron's current "off-ball game" (if we can call it that) is so bad that he manages to be a turnover machine while having mostly assisted buckets for the first time in 22 years alongside Luka - again, this is because he still isn't playing a ball movement system - it's Luka-ball and he's simply going off-the-catch in transition more often... Meanwhile, it took the modern Magic and goat playmaker like Luka to force Lebron off-ball, which shows how bad he is at it... If Lebron was elite off-ball like Curry or MJ, it wouldn't be a story to move him off-ball because he would already be playing like them.. But the stats show that he's the least off-ball player ever for his position and among the most ball-dominant players ever (hold-time and assisted rate)... Btw, the picture above shows that an opposing coach said that Lebron's "off-ball" play (higher assisted rate) is based on going "downhill upon the catch" (transition), which is something I pointed out about 10 pages ago.. This will get shut down in the playoffs, as I explain below.

The following is a nugget in the middle of this long response that probably no one else is reading: In the playoffs, every high-scoring primary ballhandler in history (aka ball-dominator) sees a 40-100% increase in their time of possession.. It's a stunning increase each year.... The 2 biggest culprits of this increase and the record-holders for time of possession in a series or playoff run (#1 and 2) are Lebron and Luka, respectively... Ball-dominators simply need to dominate the ball to get their max stats against playoff competition (adjustment basketball instead of the current pick-up games)... This means that the current honeymoon will crater in the playoffs when these guys start dominating the ball to get the same stats they're getting now... Furthermore, the NBA paired Luka and Lebron, while the Lakers are the only team covered in the media, so most teams have zero incentive to beat the Lakers, except the teams actually vying for a title (Boston, Cleveland, OKC, Denver) - the Lakers should get trampled by these 4 teams but steamroll everyone else.. (and I'm aware that a gimmick worked vs Jokic once).

Finally, let's get back to 80's Jordan for a second... In addition to showing you that he was a great fit for ball movement and grew up in ball movement systems, I invalidated your idea that coaches/schemes dictate a player's style of play or that anyone can fit the triangle - Melo's quotes showed that Phil Jackson demanded to get rid of certain guys that didn't fit the triangle, and bring in certain guys that he felt would fit.. This means that he was lucky to land alongside a guy that fit his offense in MJ, and actually thought MJ wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the offense - MJ proceeded to be scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle and average higher usage, scoring rate, shot attempts, assists and rebounds.. So it's statistical fact (and an obvious one) that Jordan's carry-jobs continued in the triangle.

Amazing how you interpreted that from the quote.

"Steph Curry is the greatest 3 point shooter ever."

I interpret that as it means he can't shoot free throws.

It's better than that, that quote is stating he is a massive threat off-ball in the half-court. It's just not him shooting jump shot two-pointers.

The quote isn't about transition at all. It's about him catching the ball in an off-ball role in the half-court and then driving to the hole. Which is just horrible basketball via analytics, midrange jumpers are ideal.

FG says it gets shut down in the playoffs but this is just back to his LeBron is the biggest failure in the playoffs instead of the sane take that he's gotten to the Finals for a decade straight and is obviously a winner.

Sorry he's not Durant in one way and isn't completely A+ in every facet. Def not top ten.

The quote says he needs "massive runways" to play off-ball, which is weak, turnover prone, and won't generate a lot of volume in the playoffs that way, which means his time of possession will skyrocket again like it always does and like all ball-dominators do once the playoffs arrive.. This will clash will Luka and they will lose.. The only wild card is the future HOF Austin Reaves, who has grown to be a 29/7/9 player (without Lebron of course).

It's quite common in pick-up basketball to see a horrible player that is playing with 4 good players and they're winning every game.. That's how a bad player wins - they team up with all the best players.

So if your argument of winning the conference is based on a player putting the top 3 players in said conference on 1 team, then your argument isn't viable and those Finals appearances mean nothing - it simply highlights how Finals appearances are conference-dependent and the only thing that matters is winning the whole league (the title).. By putting the best players on his team, Lebron didn't have to face 50-win opponents to make the Finals and could win the conference with only 24 ppg.

It's easy to forget that Lebron couldn't win the conference with homecourt in 09' and 10', so he "decided" to team up with Kobe-Pau II but still had the goat choke, record loss, and teammate bailout in 4 tries.. It's nothing to write home about, but the media simply defrauded everyone... This trickery began back when he lost a 7-game series while averaging 26 on 35% with 5 TO's, but it wasn't called an epic choke like it would've for anyone else and certainly MJ (2008 2nd Round).

After the 08' debacle, Lebron made the "Courtney Lee" defensive blunder and became a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time to lose the 09' ECF (last 5 within 5), while having goat meltdowns in 10' and 11' as well - this was a record 3 upset losses in a row leading up to the "decision" to start stacking the deck, which included an unprecedented 6 straight preseason favorites and sidekicks outplaying league MVPs, or the only team in the league with more than 1 franchise player (Big 3)... Durant's mistake was waiting 6 years to respond..

Of course the instant that Lebron leaves the conference that he manufactured, he was lottery out West in 2019 (during his prime) until he found another franchise player to team up with.. He simply has a horrible record with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, and still mostly loses with "super-teams" of multiple franchise players (1 for 6 with AD).

^^^ But that one way is required for the best teams, and so anyone that lacks it doesn't qualify for the top 10.

This doesn't mean that any elite off-ball is better than Lebron, but certainly the very best off-ball players are, such as (in order): MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar.

And 2 quick things - Russell had intangibles by straddling the racial line in NBA history, so it makes sense to simply rank the "tough-to-order" trio of Russell/Wilt/Kareem in chronological order, which shows respect to history and I believe they would agree with this order and methodology.. Btw, the top 10 criteria is partially-based on scoring, but this doesn't apply to 2-pointer basketball (pre-1980), where MVP's could be defenders like Russell.. Otoh, 3-pointer basketball requires thoroughly-dominant offensive players to be MVP (45 of 45 since 1980).
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Yeah that article is literally saying LeBron is an off-ball threat. This is fallguy’s proof that “everyone” and “billions of people” all “know” LeBron could never play off-ball or in a motion offense. Billions of people are saying this and the best he could muster is an article where an NBA coach is stating the complete opposite.

Why did you add “needs” to the quote? Did you hallucinate extra words?

A lot of misperceptions itt

He says that Lebron is a downhill threat off-the-catch, and these down-hill opportunities arise when the defense gives up massive runways - that's what it says and they aren't my words - they're the words of an opposing coach.

This need for massive runways to get "downhill", (aka still dominate the ball) is weak, turnover prone, and won't generate a lot of volume in the playoffs.. Accordingly, his time of possession will eventually skyrocket like all ball-dominators do once the playoffs arrive.. This will clash will Luka and they will lose.

Where does he say that Lebron can play in a ball movement system like the Nuggets, Warriors, Spurs or any great team, or even win at all with normal rosters of 1 franchise player?

Again, stop lying about my posts when you apparently didn't read them.

The one quote about Lebron that I provided was referring to a more detailed point about the TYPE of so-called "off-ball" game that Lebron was playing, aka downhill, aka still ball-domination and not a ball movement system, especially since it's Luka-ball.

So this quote wasn't related to the quotes you requested that Lebron can't play ball movement because any NBA player or coach would get ostracized if they openly insulted a player like Bird, MJ or Lebron by saying they "can't" do something like that... Accordingly, they say the player "needs" the ball, or that they "didn't know" if MJ could handle the rock, etc... It's called using euphemisms - it's the adult way to talk about crappy things like a bad off-ball game and inability to play in a system.... It's bball 101 that if you "need" to dominate the ball, then you can't play ball movement, which is why the millions of quotes from players and coaches saying Lebron "needs" the ball satisfies your request for quotes saying he can't play ball movement.

The original issue was providing evidence that 80's Jordan played off-ball to show that he was suited for ball movement systems like the triangle.

This was done by showing quotes from his coaches that said he played off-ball and grew up in the best ball movement systems, which proved that he was already suited for the triangle... So since I proved that MJ was suited for the triangle, you wanted me to prove that Lebron was also suited for it by showing that no one ever said he wasn't... But again, fellow NBA players and coaches aren't going to say someone stinks and that isn't how we proved that 80's Jordan could play off-ball - we proved it for Jordan by showing that everyone said he played off-ball, which no one said about Lebron.. Instead, they say he needs the ball to be effective - this word "effective" means an all-time ball-handler, compared to an average caliber off-the-ball - that's a massive chasm.

This assessment by everyone that he needs the ball to be effective and therefore can't play off-ball is statistically-backed by his lowest-ever assisted rate for his position (the most abnormal ball-dominance ever), which gives teammates the least opportunity to assist, thereby creating low assist teams and team assist deficits in every series loss of Lebron's playoff career.

Ultimately, it matters that Lebron isn't elite off-ball because history shows that every great team has a ball movement system that requires elite off-ball players like Duncan, MJ, Curry, Jokic, etc.. Accordingly, Lebron's off-ball game doesn't qualify for a ball movement system as required by great teams.. This doesn't mean that any elite off-ball player is better than Lebron, but certainly the very best off-ball players are, such as (in order): MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar.

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Quantitative and Qualitative Evidence that Lebron Can't Play in a Ball Movement System:

1) He's never done it, and his entire career until now has been played in an offense where he's the high-scoring primary ballhandler ("ball-dominator").

2) It's public information that every great team in 3-pointer history (listed below) used ball movement systems or had #1 assist teams every year, so Lebron could've tried out tons of ball movement coaches to achieve this caliber of winning.. Instead, he brought in coaches that allowed him to be a ball-dominator for 22 years... The only coach that wanted to run a ball movement system (Blatt), he famously fired for that specific reason.

3) The ball movement systems used by every great modern team required highly-assisted, elite off-ball players, which Lebron is not, so his off-ball game doesn't qualify for a ball movement system, and therefore a great team... It's been stated by coaches that the only thing Lebron has going off-the-catch is "downhill" (ball-domination), so he lacks elite off-ball ability required of top options in a ball movement system (i.e. all-time jumpshooting on 2's or 3's, fundamentals/footwork, movement and shooting off screens, or true big man assisted rates & go-to moves like Duncan or Shaq)... Even the current Lakers are running "Luka-ball", so Lebron still isn't playing in a ball movement system, in part because of Luka-ball and also because his own off-ball play amounts to downhill (ball-domination), as other coaches have expressed (shown earlier).

4) Tons of media like Broussard, Kenny Smith and Barkley say that Lebron can't play in a ball movement system... Meanwhile, the respectful assessment of every coach, player and GM is that he "needs" the ball to be effective (and therefore can't play off-ball), which is statistically-backed by his lowest-ever assisted rate for his position and highest-ever hold-time (the most abnormal ball-dominance ever) - this gives teammates the least opportunity to assist, thereby creating low assist teams and team assist deficits in every series loss of Lebron's playoff career.

* The great teams of 3-pointer basketball history include dominant champions that averaged 1 loss per round for a title run (4 losses max) like the 86' Celtics, 87' Lakers, 97' Bulls, 01' Lakers, 02' Lakers, 03' Spurs, 07' Spurs, 17' Warriors, 23' Nuggets and 24' Celtics.. Great teams also include "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch (i.e. 3 in 5) like the 80's Lakers, 90's Bulls', 00's Lakers, Spurs and Warriors.. All these great teams of modern basketball used ball movement systems and/or #1 assists teams every year (80's Lakers).. This is the opposite of ball-dominators like Lebron, who never used ball movement systems and produce low assist teams (by imposing spot-up roles that lower everyone's assists).

No kidding

This is so hor$h!t ….
Pippen end up being 8th scorer in the entire Freakn league dummy …in 94 .
Ahead of Charles Barkley ffs ….

I mean how hard it would be to find a great scorer 2nd option when your 1st option (pippen) is “just” the 8th best scorer in the league .

Nah u can’t build a team with someone being top 8th and t5th scorer in the league while being one of the best defender but hey , bosh and love -> franchise players ?
Jfc ….

Not mentioning contrary to those 2 clown players , pippen all defensive team 1 and dpoy2 and 4 ….

Thx FG , you actually made appreciate pippen much more .

Ps: when I look at bosh scoring in 2010 (his best year?) , u keep saying LeBron join the 3 best players in the east and make a team and bosh was a franchise player and u need a great scorer for it .
Well bosh 2010 was the 9th scorer in the league -> franchise player
Pippen 8th scorer in the league -> can’t be a franchise player zzzzzz
Pippen much better when you take his defense ability ….
I just have no idea how much nonsense u make ….

Kevin love had great stats because he had such a shitty team , never could even break .500 with minessota .
Hell even had like 17-65 record has the 1st option .
Yup it works great building around him ….
Maybe Minnesota’s just had no choice to have Kevin love number 1 …

And all those years bosh was a “franchise player” , he break .500 only once with his team .
What a successful franchise player for so many years ….

Just stop FG .
Pps: did it prevent Russell to be a franchise player and be #2 all time even tho he had so many scorers in front of him In stats and light years away to be 1 at option scorer ?
The amount of theories you talk into yourself is just amazing …

He was also the 6th highest scorer in the playoffs (23ppg), despite 7 of his 10 games being against the best defensive team in the league (Knick), and the other 3 being against the 7th best (Cavs).

He was 28.

Butler only exceeded 23ppg in his 10th playoff run @ 32. And that was in beginner format of the 2022 season. He's only once finished higher than Pippen's 6th finish in ppg in the playoff.

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Matt's evidence that Lebron can play in a ball movement system:

1) Matt's desire that he can, and preliminary internet searches don't pull up players and coaches openly trashing him and saying he can't

Fallguy evidence that Lebron can't play in a ball movement system:

1) History says he can't (22 years), and the entire history of all high-scoring primary ballhanders says the entire skillset can't

2) Science says that ball-domination and ball movement cannot happen at the same time

3) Stats show that he prevents ball movement by producing low assist teams - he lowers everyone's assists by increasing their assisted rate (spot-up role).

4) Consensus of media and fans say he can't, while players and coaches say he needs the ball and stifles teammates..

5) Coaches say his off-ball game amounts to more "downhill" and not a ball movement system where he facilitates ball movement by moving off screens and all-time jumpshooting

22 ppg of system points and transition from Pippen is a horrible PEAK capability that isn't good enough to put other good players beneath him and build around.. This horrible peak capability doesn't compare to 22 ppg from Barkley of double-teams and team-carrying offense, which is a good FLOOR capability for a franchise player.

Secondly, Pippen was an 7 ppg rookie and bench player that needed to be developed by the goat, so he was never projected as an elite scorer and franchise player.

Finally, Pippen was a system player of mostly transition, so he wasn't dominant enough to put other good players beneath him and build around like Bosh or Love - that's why Pippen was never asked to build a team from scratch like true franchise players... Instead, and was handed a ready-made dynasty that he destroyed to barely .500 in less than 18 months... He was simply a dunker and not good enough to put other good players beneath him... Otoh, Bosh or Love had dominant iso capability that commanded double-teams, which is the caliber of elite scoring that franchise players require.

^^^ That's horrible peak ability, and it certainly isn't good or elite for only 2 series - Pippen was the worst player in the playoffs against the Knicks by averaging 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter and 21.7 on 40% for the series.

He had several historic chokes like the "sit out" game, or the "dumb foul" game, or a horrible game 7 as the final choke to cap off the biggest series of chokes ever.

Accordingly, the 1994 2nd Round was a cry out for help by Pippen - "I can't do this!!!.. I'm just a transition and system player that lacks the scoring ability, efficiency, and mental fortitude/clutch!!!... Watch me choke over and over and pout and cry!!... Where's Mike..... Mommy!!"

Again, Pippen was simply a dunker and not good enough to put other good players beneath him... Otoh, true franchise players like AD or Love had dominant iso capability that commanded double-teams, which is the caliber of elite scoring that franchise players require

Pippen had exactly one shot as a first option and he performed very well. Losing to the team that went to the Finals in 7. I mean it's better than Love ever did as a first option.

"Biggest series of chokes ever". Your list of GOAT chokes is about 500 long.

Anyway I've used Butler vs Pippen as comps (even though Pippen is clearly better), because they are similar players. They are 2 way wings who's stats don't always back up the impact they have in a game.