GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Forgot one:

Reggie Lewis vs Pippen as 1st options in Playoffs

92' LEWIS........ 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN...... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp

(10 games each)

^^^ The numbers aren't close.

Due to Lewis' superior scoring and carrying ability, he allows a team to put other good scorers beneath him, thus allowing a team greater capacity for talent... i.e. a guy like Ben Simmons might battle for 1st option and be 1a/1b with Pippen, which gives the team less capacity for talent than a team with Simmons as the clear-cut #2 behind Lewis.

Since the quality of the top scorer impacts a team's capacity for talent and ability to build, we know Pippen is nowhere near a franchise player because he never averaged 15 ppg outside the system of the triangle... So shooters like Schrempf that can average 19 and 6 assists outside a system would be 1st option over Pippen instantly, or Sean Elliott, Glenn Robinson, Michael Finley, Jamal Mashburn - tons of great scorers and/or great shooters - too many to start naming.

Accordingly, possibly 50 guys or thereabouts were better franchise players in the 90's than a 14 ppg guy and "system" player like Pippen... Pippen simply had the lowest peak capability (lowest percentiles) of any scoring all-star in the 90's (pretty big sample), and this low peak entailed around 20 ppg of open "system points" and transition - virtually zero clutch - BJ Armstrong and Toni Kukoc took over in the 4th - literally.

The worst sidekick that MJ faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, who played better than Damian Lillard ever has in the 90' or 92' Western Playoffs to carry the Blazers to both Finals... Accordingly, every sidekick in the 90's was a "1b" and a threat to dominate with elite stats except Pippen, who could only get open "system" points or transition, and wasn't a 15 ppg player outside the system.

Jordan already had the high assisted rate required to avoid a bad fit with Luka, so Luka would have the ball in his hands and grow by leaps and bounds just like Pippen or Sam Vincent (ballhandlers), or Grant, Oakley, Woolridge (forwards)... Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominance cratered ball-handlers like Ingram, Westbrook, Hughes, and even Wade, while destroying forwards like Jamison, Love, Bosh, Kuzma, Drummond, Wood, and many more.

The recent games that Lebron played showed that his "downhill" style of off-ball (more secondary break stuff) is still a high-turnover and high hold-time style, and still quite ball-dominant... Furthermore, every ball-dominator in history sees their hold-times increase 25-100% in the playoffs, which will further crater the Lebron/Luka fit (in addition to the aforementioned "downhill" gimmick that is only working in the current pick-up ball of the regular season, where no teams have any incentive to beat the Lakers anyway, as explained below).

NBA players that beat the Lakers probably tell their girlfriend when they get home after the game - "nah, no need to turn on the TV - they won't be covering our win... The NBA put Luka and Lebron together, so they get all the coverage.. I heard the TV crews talking on my way out and the story was about how the Lakers lacked effort and need more help - there was zero mention of us actually winning the game... The league is just a soap opera for the Lakers... I guess they need another rebounder or something this time because we killed them on the glass."

Accordingly, there's zero incentive for any team to beat the Lakers, except the tiny handful of teams that know they're vying for the title this year (OKC, DEN, BOS, CLE).. This fact coupled with the need for Luka and Lebron to increase their hold-times in the playoffs like all ball-dominators do should be enough to take down the ball-dominator duo of Luka/Lebron from their current honeymoon period.

Ah, that luminary Christian Wood getting held back by Bron ball

Tragic

And Pippen was supposedly just a transition dunker, but now he's a ball handler that grew leaps and bounds next to MJ

Of course, that's just in comparison to Bron being horrible and Jordan great and an offhand comment. If we actual start talking about Pippen, then he sucks, Jordan carry-jobbed him, and he's worse than Larry Hughes

It's def true that players play for talking heads to comment on them and give them credit, not trying to optimize performance to maximize earnings.

I actually believe you believe this tho.

It's like guys I know who sincerely believe the NFL is rigged. When you tell them there's too many moving parts for it to to be preplanned to all come down to a single call at the end they just look at you blankly. Then repeat it again the next week. Vegas something something.

High-scoring primary ballhandlers ("ball-dominators") never ran a ball movement system and don't fit into one, while their skillset inherently prevents one by lowering everyone's assists and producing low-assist teams... So they're the only skillset I demean.

Specifically, a season where a player is categorized as a "high-scoring primary ballhandler" (ball-dominator) is a season of 25+ ppg and under 40% assisted rate (60% solo missions/unassisted buckets)... These seasons by "ball-dominators" occurred 96 times since possession-tracking began in 1997, and they averaged 18th in team assists, while having a top 5 assist team only 5% of the time (5 of 96)... Otoh, 25 ppg scorers with higher assisted rates of 50% or more averaged 10th in assists and produced top 5 assist teams 41% of the time (36 of 87 times).

So again, the only skillset that I knock is the high-scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator), since they're the only skillset with large volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles (increases everyone's assisted rate), which lowers their assists and produces low team assists over time.. The lower team assists and spot-up roles prevent elite roster construction, young player development, chemistry/teammate performance, ball movement systems, and therefore great teams.

Btw, you're talking about it the wrong way because Curry didn't "fit into" the system - his skillset of getting 30-50 points mostly off-ball as teammates are involved and assisting him (instead of standing in the corner) allowed a system to be run that moved the ball and allowed everyone to touch the ball.. Ditto Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic (my top 10)... Otoh, ball-dominators get buckets by making everyone stand in the corner, thereby preventing a ball movement system and great team, which disqualifies that skillset from the top 10... It's really quite simple.

Tony Parker and Ginobili were both (skillset-wise) high scoring primary ball-handlers. As was Kobe and Jordan.

They adjusted their games for the system their coach ran.

Derrick Fisher, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, etc were regulated to a spot-up role (which you supposedly detest) next to a dominating (and domineering) SG, fwiw.

Everything you think is largely a made up narrative.

We only have the last couple of seasons with the Bulls, but guess how many shots of Kerr's were within 16 feet of the rim?

Guess what John Paxson's free throw rate was? (Since he wasn't just a spot up shooting bailout and all.)

You should not desecrate Ginobili by mis-classifying his goat-level off-ball game as a high-scoring primary ball-handler (ball-dominator).

Ginobili, MJ and Kobe were never classified as primary ballhandlers and they all had assisted rates in the mid-40's (Kobe) or 50's and 60's (MJ & Ginobili).. Maybe you haven't watched Ginobili in a while - he was a spectacular off-ball player... MJ, Kobe and Ginobili were all OFF-guards, which is a synonym for shooting guard, so all these guys can shoot and play off-ball.. This is bball 101.

Secondly, guys like Fisher, Kerr and Paxson were always "korver"-like spot-up shooters - they were never considered primary ballhandlers that needed to adjust to the triangle - that's absurd... Just look at their assist levels if you never saw them play and don't already know that they weren't Kevin Johnson - those guys were spot-up shooters and very low-producing ones.... It's amazing that you would try to boost guys like that to make your case - they were all a little worse than Boobie Gibson, but that same skillset.

Again, Melo talked about Phil coming to the Knicks and demanding to get rid of certain guys that didn't fit the triangle and bring in other guys that did fit - literally yelling about it.. Melo goes into great detail here.

So you guys keep trying to act like anyone can play any style and a player's style/skillset depends on the coach/scheme, which fails bball 101..

Btw, regarding Tony Parker - he isn't "high" scoring, which was the whole point of saying "high-scoring" primary ball-handlers, aka ball-dominators.. High scoring is required to have the vaunted high volume of unassisted buckets that lowers everyone's assists and the teams, while imposing spot-up roles.. Contrastingly, low-scoring point guards like Magic, Nash, Haliburton and Parker don't have the high volume of unassisted buckets, so they have high-assist teams all the time and their ball-dominance doesn't affect the brand as much as high-scoring ballhandlers (and their high volume of unassisted buckets).

So MJ and Kobe weren't the primary ball handlers yet the nominal point guard were spot up shooters.

Def not a contradiction and you def understand what you're talking about.

Tony Parker was a scoring downhill point guard (insane points in the paint), he just played within the system akin to Bosh giving up shots w Miami. One is good and one is bad bc LeBron was involved, thus holding him back.

LeBron is a great scorer, but naturally likes to involve his teammates (intuitively plays the right way).

MJ and Kobe did not like to involve teammates so it necessitated coaches (well, Phil Jackson) to implement an offense that forced the ball out of their hands to involve others and get them better shots then they could muster on their own - unlike the bigger and stronger LeBron.

Hope this helps.

They weren't, and the fact that you're trying to say they were to counter my point or make yours means that you're on the losing side of the argument.

It's well-known that some guys that start at point guard are actually highly-assisted spot-up shooters with klay-like assisted rates of 60-70% like Derek Fisher, Paxson, etc... On the NBA level, they're spot-up shooters and have been their entire careers..

This differs from guys like a Luke Ridnour or Ramon Sessions that have high APG and are clearly primary ballhandlers that create... But they're still low scorers and it's only the high-scoring primary ballhandlers like Luka, Lebron or SGA that have enough unassisted buckets to negatively impact team assists.

Again, Tony Parker wasn't a high-scoring primary ballhandler or even the 1st option of the dynasty... You aren't grasping that unassisted buckets produce low assist teams, so high volume of them from 1 guy will cause low assist teams, and that's what high-scoring primary ballhandlers do... But Parker was a low-scoring primary ballhandler like Magic, Nash or Haliburton, so he didn't enough unassisted buckets to negatively impact team assists and could have high assist teams like they did.

So we both acknowledge that Derrick Fisher was a spot up shooter and not a primary ballhandler, and you say Kobe wasn't the Lakers' primary ballhandler.

So who was?

During Jordan's era, name all the starting point guards who weren't the primary ballhandler.

Hint, Jordan was the point man on offense (and shared a bit of duties with Pippen, Odom later had a similar role). He would just shoot so much it confuses you.

Jordan and Kobe do exactly what you hate about LeBron, 'forced' others into spot-up roles (really it's just good team building and better fits).

Ron Harper also wasn't a point guard, they put a shooting guard at point on defense and let Jordan run it on offense. Derrick Fisher and Steve Kerr were off-ball offensively and defensively matched up with the other team's point. Positions are fluid and it's all dependent on whether you primarily define them based on offensive or defensive role.

The whole point of being "point" is having the ball. Depending on skillsets you can mix and match offensively and defensively. Like Luka is obviously a point but he's not guarding Dame.

The truth about Miami was Wade and LeBron were a poor fit bc Wade wasn't great off-ball and to get the most out of LeBron you want the ball in his hands. It's not that he HAS to play this way, it's just the optimal usage of him. LeBron with Bosh and a young Ray Allen would've been much better and would've let Bosh eat more (instead of forcing him on the perimeter which had more to do with clearing room for Wade than a LeBron thing).

Being point is basically being quarterback, and you can't have two quarterbacks at the exact same time. Miami tried that year 1 and then gave the reins to Bron year 2.

Now, Bron is letting Luka play QB but somehow that's a bad thing and his scoring in his new role doesn't count (shocker).

Actually, the modern player like MJ, Shaq, Lebron, Curry, etc. are SO good that they require a ball movement system to produce a great team, otherwise they're so good that they ball always ends up in their hands... MJ was the first player that was good enough to require this, and every dynasty or dominant champion since then has used a ball movement system to offset the overwhelming ability of the modern star.

However, the issue is that some modern stars lack the off-ball skills required to dominate within a ball movement system, so they force coaches to run a losing ball-dominant brand that can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player or produce dynasties (Luka, Harden, Lebron, SGA, Westbrook, etc).

Accordingly, due to the overwhelming skill of modern stars, great modern teams require ball movement systems and therefore elite off-ball players, which Lebron is not, thus confirming that he and other ball-dominators can't play in a ball movement system... History backs this up because they never have... Ball movement systems required by great modern teams use elite off-ball players like Curry, MJ, and Duncan, or Jokic, so the off-ball game of Lebron, Harden Luka and company doesn't qualify for a ball movement system and therefore a great modern team.

History backs this up, since every dominant champion that averaged 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max) required a ball movement system (97' Bulls, 01' Lakers, 02' Lakers, 07' Spurs, 17' Warriors, 23' Nuggets, 24' Celtics), while every dynasty that won 3 in 5 did as well (90's Bulls, 00's Lakers, 00's Spurs, Warriors)... (btw, the 80's Lakers were #1 in assists literally every year as Kareem led in scoring with many assisted buckets).

Again, Melo talked about Phil coming to the Knicks and demanding to get rid of certain guys that didn't fit the triangle and bring in other guys that did fit - literally yelling about it.. Melo goes into great detail here... So you guys keep trying to act like anyone can play any style and a player's style/skillset depends on the coach/scheme, which fails bball 101.. And again, it isn't about "fitting in".. Ball movement systems require ELITE off-ball players like Curry, MJ or Duncan, which Lebron is not.. So this proves that he can't play in a ball movement system.

If Michael Jordan wasn't the primary ballhandler, and have the ball an inordinate amount of time, how does his usage dwarf that of other guards of the day?

Both 1s (point guards) and 2s (shooting guards).

The only other guard with usage like that was ldo Kobe.

It's because usage doesn't measure how long someone has the ball or ball-domination... It measures shot attempts... The formula is literally FGA + FTA + TO's as a percentage of possessions... So Klay Thompson could lead in usage if he just took 30 shots

Otoh, stats that measure ball-domination are hold-time (time of possession) and assisted rate (the percentage of FG's that are assisted by teammates).

But a guard can't get that many shots without primarily having the ball.

Look at the usage for the time. It's all point guards, big men, and guys that teams played thru as the point offensively regardless of nominal position. Like Grant Hill in Detroit, Lindsay Hunter was Derrick Fisher. Or Antoine Walker with Boston, etc.

You've gotta have the ball in your hands to lead the league in usage, as Jordan did year after year.

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Recent Thread Cliffs

It isn't about "fitting in" or "adjusting" to a ball movement system because ball movement systems require elite off-ball players, while all coaches and players say that Lebron needs the ball and isn't an elite off-ball player... This is how we know that Lebron and all high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) can't play in a ball movement system and never have.. Since they can't play with the elite chemistry/teammate performance of a ball movement system, they can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player or produce great teams as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion), which makes them inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (jumpshooters or bigs) and therefore outside the top 10 all-time... Accordingly, the top 10 is a subjective mix of the greatest jumpshooters and bigs ever (off-ball players) - i.e. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic.

A random smattering of names to give you an idea:

Klay career usg: 24.8
Steph career usg: 29.0
Pippen career usg: 22.5
Reggie career usg: 21.6
Drexler career usg: 25.4
Nash career usg: 21.0
CP career usg: 22.8
GP career usg: 22.5
Mark Price career usg: 22.8
Stockton career usg: 18.9
Jordan career usg: 33.3
Bron career usg: 31.5
Kobe career usg: 31.8
Russ career usg: 31.2
Harden career usg: 29.4
Luka career usg: 35.6

Sure seems like the only guys near MJ and Kobe are the modern points who are both primary scorers and distributors. It's almost like everything you lament, they were the forerunners of.

And it's almost like you can glean more from usg for who a player is then assisted fg %. But what do I know, I've already lost the argument too many times to count.

Carry on.

If you're assisted on half your shots, then you aren't ball-dominant - that's more than enough proof to show that Jordan's league-leading usage was done with minimal dribbles in 97' and 98'.

Secondly, he led the league in usage during the 2nd three-peat on basically turnaround jumpers - so proves you wrong as well, in addition to being assisted on the majority of his shots... \\

Thirdly, why do you think MJ had such low turnovers despite higher scoring burden if he was a ball-dominator?.. It's 100% common knowledge that Jordan didn't dominate the ball.

Fourthy, quotes were posted earlier of all his coaches saying that he didn't dominate the ball and grew up in the best ball movement systems (North Carolina and Bobby Knight's Olympics).. Due to his ball movement background, his first coach said that they didn't even know if he could handle the ball when he arrived in training camp, and the biggest surprise they had about him was that he could.

All of this is bball 101 that you refuse to accept because it means MJ is goat...

Those numbers are 100% correlated with shot attempts.... MJ and Luka shoot the most and then Luka adds the turnovers.. Usage = FGA + FTA + TO's/total possessions... It's the number of possessions that you "use" (close).

This is 100% correct and you're 100% wrong, which means MJ is goat.. There is no debate on this..

And Mj is literally the GOAT off-ball player, so you don't realize how dumb you sound... A complete idiot about basketball.. I'm not going to argue that 2 + 2 = 5.... If you guys don't want to look up basic definitions or formulas and just state whatever you want, then go ahead and be super-dumb.. It's a free country.. I can only try to educate you so much.

For fun,

Career usg:

John Paxson: 14.0
Steve Kerr: 14.0 (same, not a typo)
Derek Fisher: 16.2
Mo Williams: 22.8

With the notable team and pairing:

Paxson/Bulls: 13.8
Kerr/Bulls: 13.7
Fisher/Lakers: 15.4
Mo/Cavs: 23.3

So Mo (who had the same spot-up role as the others that you decry LeBron for) had the highest usage and was the only one who had a higher usage next to their lauded ball dominating teammate.

But LeBron stifles teammates. Okay.

Don't get mad. It's okay that you're wrong.

I'm sure it's easy to lead the whole league year after year shooting the ball as a guard but not having it a disproportionate amount of the time.

Just keep repeating that he's off-ball... while having the ball in his hands all the time. You're definitely right again.

#1 Because he shot it once he got it, you have more turnovers passing the ball.

#2 His wicked power dribble was impenetrable.

#3 Refs would call fouls if he was breathed on.