LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

And dude, I lived through it.

Go into any AOL chatroom and it was nothing but Jordan sucks, he's just a ballhog.

Of course that was dumb but popular sentiment was exactly the opposite of what you're saying "everyone knew."

And guess what? I argued with them then too. People are dumb and love to hate, well basically everything.

In a decade or two I'll be arguing (inshallah) with Bron stans about how the next guy is legit great too.

I posted a few quotes from GOATs saying the exact opposite. Want me to find them for you, I noticed you didn't reply at the time. Here's one:

[QUOTE=Kareem Abdul Jabbar]“Michael was the one who changed the game. But at the same time, his style of play started to make the game a little more individualistic, where players were less inclined to play within a team structure and more inclined to be ‘the star.’”[/QUOTE]

Crazy though that his former coaches would say he came up through the best systems. That's not self-congratulatory at all. Def no bias.

I'd say for an argument via quote I won that one pretty resoundingly.

Don't be mad.

See now you're changing it

You were just talking about how usage meant that Jordan was ball-dominant and not conducive for ball movement, but now you're switching it to "ball hog" after the usage/ball-dominance correlation was disproven.

And the ball hog thing was disproven 30 years ago - it took 37 ppg to win 40 games in 1987 because he had a rebounder like Oakley as his 2nd option, not because he was holding down proven scorers like Hughes or Love by turning them into spot-up shooter... Once Jordan barely got a 15 ppg sidekick, he was unbeatable, although his burden still increased in the triangle (usage, shot attempts, scoring rate, rebs, assists).

Kareem said that he caused guys to play individually - he didn't say Jordan did.

All the copycats made the same mistake you're making about Jordan's game - they figured that 37 ppg meant dominating the ball for entire shot clocks, which is why none of these modern players are anywhere near him... Their skillsets are literally making guys stand in the corner while they dribble, which is a laughable way to play that didn't exist in Kareem or Jordan's day

Again, early coaches said Jordan played off-ball and grew up in ball movement systems.. His first coaches said that he came from such renowned ball movement systems that they didn't know if he could handle the ball... Jordan's suitability for ball movement is why he proved Phil and everyone wrong and became the winningest player in 3-pointer history.

Accept that you saw a perennial loser and bum in Lebron, while I saw the goat and greatest winner... And you should feel bad because it's NIGHT AND DAY - you haven't seen anything

Did you answer this riddle yet and I missed it?

No dumbass - Jordan's first NBA coach (Loughery) or Collins weren't congratulating themselves - they were saying that Dean Smith and Bobby Knight had the best ball movement systems and that's what Jordan can up in....

Loughery said that Jordan came from such renowned ball movement systems that they didn't know if he could handle the ball.

So again, you're proven stupidly wrong just like the usage thing

Talk about a distinction without a difference.

And you just never change your mind about anything. You ignore things that run counter to what you believe and refuse to adjust your priors in general.

Every once in a while, like a dementia patient, you'll have these rare moments of clarity. But then you go right back to repeating things counter to your milliseconds of insight.

But yeah, you just keep proving everyone wrong as the mob grows. You are 100% wiser than the crowd of analytically inclined basketball loving (former) poker players. I hope ignorance is blissful.

Are you stupid???

There is no primary ball-handler in most ball-movement systems, and never a high-scoring one

That's why Lebron and all high-scoring primary ball-handlers (ball-dominators) can't play in ball movement systems and never have, so they can't have great teams

Know how I know that you know you're losing?

And okay, good one. Coaches def always criticize other coaches as opposed to blowing each other in the fraternity (as they hire each other's sons).

Keep getting hot under the collar tho.

You're neither analytical nor do you love basketball, regardless of your belief that you do

You can't love something you know nothing about.. You don't even know what usage is or understand the concept of ball-dominance and ball movement, so stop.. You don't love basketball... You just love the charade they put on for you on ESPN etc... You love the WWE that they lead you on.. You cannot think for yourself about the game

It's so egalitarian that shots must be pretty equally distributed then.

Right? I mean it's a ball movement system, give up a good shot for a great one, right?

Keep getting more and more crass tho, definitely implies intelligence.

As opposed to the guy who trolls by saying he hasn't watched it in a decade.

Full of contradictions and vexed is a poor combo. Calm down.

And if he did, it wouldn't count and he'd just be a system guy.

Now you're trying to say that Bobby Knight and Dean Smith weren't great at ball movement and Loughery was simply doing the coaching fraternity thing.

So I've gotten you to argue that usage = ball-domination and the best ball movement coaches ever weren't good at ball-movement... That's more than enough proof for me to know that I've destroyed you in our arguments.. Try to a good day bud.

Yes, a guard having the highest usg in the league dominates the ball.

Water is wet.

thx for not answering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evbFHHud...

^^^ When MJ averaged 45 ppg against the 88' Cavs, nearly 80% of his buckets were achieved with 1 dribble or less, which is flat out GOAT.. I would encourage anyone to watch the tape.

Here's MJ's first coach Kevin Loughery saying that MJ wasn't even viewed as a ball-handler back in 1984:

"When Michael played for Dean Smith, it was a total passing offense in college, and then Bobby Knight coached the Olympics where it was the same type offense.. So the only thing we were skeptical about with Michael was whether he could handle the ball and take it anywhere he wanted on the floor. "

^^^ 2:14 mark:

https://soundcloud.com/glennclarkradiocl...

Here's Doug Collins in 1987 describing how MJ was getting 37 ppg off-the-ball:

"We've taken the ball out of Michael Jordan's hands.. We've got Paxson and Coulter bringing the ball up... Michael's working off-the-ball more, which saving him work.. And I thought that if we're going to be a team, we need 12 guys contributing during the course of the year.. We can't expect Michael every single night to carry the team every night - no 1 man will beat a team like LA or Boston - it has to be a collection of individual talents."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR7tZlrv...

Here's Doug Collins stating that MJ's 37 ppg was needed and achieved without ball-domination:

"Management traded away the majority of the offense of this team, so Michael had an unbelievable burden placed on him to score.. We've tried to do it in a team concept - Michael does not dominate the ball.. We run him off picks.. We try to get him the ball where he doesn't have to fight 3 and 3 guys..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4OGPNQ0...

Jordan's assisted rate in 97' and 98' was over 50% despite leading the league in scoring as a perimeter player (unprecedented until Curry).

So usage is just shot attempts... You're wrong to think it's ball-domination and your refusal or inability to understand the basic formula shows a lack of competency.

I understand that most perimeter players with high usage are dumb ball-dominators that are mostly unassisted by teammates/solo missions and dribble a lot, except MJ (and Curry).... And that's the reason I've been saying for 1000 pages that MJ is GOAT - it's the off-ball aspect that allows great brand of ball and chemistry, thereby allowing titles with far less talent than any other dynasty..

The obvious eye test of his goat off-ball game is backed up by 50% assisted rate in 97' and 98' for a perimeter scoring champion (unprecedented until Curry)... Furthermore , all his coaches said he grew up in the best off-ball systems and began as an off-ball player (see quotes in previous post), while dribble stats from the 88' Playoffs show that 80% of shots were 1 dribble or less for 45 ppg (see previous post)... Plus he had goat jumpshooting volume & efficiency (the only player to make 700 jumpers in a season, which was nearly twice as much as Curry's high)... (edit: Kobe made 700 too)... Essentially, all the evidence shows that he was always an off-ball player.

There is no way to refute this - you can't refute it by lying about usage or Jordan's coaches, or telling me about my lyin' eyes... It's amazing that you can't see your low character in this discussion..
I've simply proven why Lebron isn't goat or top 10 - it's the bad chemistry and ball-domination part, which produced the worst-ever title frequency, and perennial losers with every cast (despite the most help)..

Not if he averaged 41 to 3-peat and averaged 10-30 ppg more than all teammates in every series of his career.

But Lebron can't play in a ball movement system because every coach and player says that Lebron isn't an elite off-ball player, and that's what ball movement systems require.

It isn't about"fitting in" or "adjusting" to ball movement because ball movement systems require all-time off-ball players, which Lebron is not... He isn't Duncan, Curry or MJ... You should understand that if the situation was reversed and ball-domination had the history of dynasties and dominant champions, then the discussion would be whether Jordan was a good enough ball-dominator to be goat.. But instead, ball movement wins at basketball, so the goat off-ball player won the most in the modern era and is goat.

Btw, I think Jordan would be a goat ball-dominator if that's what winning entailed because the media, coaches and fans declared that he was already the best PG in the league after just a few games at the position during a 25-game point guard stint in 89' - he was a 30/10/10 point guard a full 30 years before the 30/10/10 era (today's game)...

Yes, LeBron has played with guys that can score as well as him at some stage in their career. But make no mistake he is always the main focus of every defense that's ever played against his team. Even you must admit that. If you can't. That's just sad.

James Harden at his peak could score as well as Jordan. Doesn't mean I think he's a better scorer.

It's not all about scoring (even though LeBron is all time at that). But you don't want to see that.

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Exhibit 1

Exhibit 2

2014 ECF Stats and Clutch Stats

LEBRON....... 23 on 56%...... 4.5 on 50% in clutch-time
WADE........... 20 on 48%...... 4.5 on 80% in clutch-time

Exhibit 3

"Closing"

^^^ Lebron never hit a winner on the championship level like Kyrie did (0-7), while AD was 1st option when he hit the winner against Jokic (1st option and closer).

Based on what exactly:

19' Harden........ 36.1 of 113.9 team ppg (31.7%)...... 87% unassisted/woat off-ball (no chance to build team)
87' Jordan'......... 37.1 of 104.8 team ppg (35.4%)*.... highly-assisted/goat off-ball (great chance to build team)

* Jordan was 1st player in history with 200 steals and 100 blocks, while being the 2nd player with 3000 points

Scoring is the "star" category, so being able to carry the star category allows the team to need less stars, which allows the GM to find more defensive help.. Lebron could never carry weak scoring help over top teams (beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring/efficiency from sidekick) or carry the scoring load on the championship level (conference play is meaningless unless the opponent is a strong title contender, i.e. most top 5 SRS foes).

Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load stems from his ball-dominance at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and needs all-time scoring help... Otoh, highly-assisted players like Curry, Jordan, and Duncan can drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can carry the scoring load against top teams and win with secondary producers like Klay, Parker or Pippen.. These weaker-producing teammates barely scrape 20 ppg and that's considered good for them, while it's trade-worthy coming from the franchise guys that ball-dominators need (AD, Wade, Luka, Kyrie/Love)... So it's a clear trend of ball-dominators needing more help due to their inability to carry the star category (scoring), and also the bad chemistry issue of imposing spot-up roles and producing low assist teams.

^^^ is he though?

When Lebron first overcame his bully in the 2011 2nd Round, Boston was more worried about Wade, who led the team, not Lebron... This trend of defenses worrying a greater or comparable amount on a teammate continued in the other big series of that 2011 run - the Finals.... Lebron needed a FMVP with superior closing ability to show him how to win and perform under pressure.. This means he wasn't the main focus for his entire career like you stated above.

Secondly, in addition to Wade being the focus in the 2011 Playoffs and Finals, guys like AD and Kyrie were equal-scoring partners and superior closers for various title runs as well (Exhibits 2 and 3 above), which means it's arguable that Lebron wasn't the main focus in other series or runs... Regardless, Lebron's runs with equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and "close" for him is nowhere near the max defensive attention faced by guys that carried the scoring load and role-playing teammates (while also closing themselves).. This ability to carry the scoring load is required for everyone in my top 10 that is from 3-pointer basketball only, since 2-pointer basketball had different requirements and didn't require dominant offense to be MVP.

Lebron's ball-dominance means that defenders are always looking at him with the ball, but that doesn't mean that they aren't staying at home on his teammates, which is the preferred strategy against a weaker-shooting ball-dominator (Exhibit 1 above)... Specifically, teams meet ball-handlers in the paint or at the rim with multiple defenders, so the only players that require overt double-teaming on the perimeter are hot jumpshooters, such as Curry, MJ, and Kobe... The ability to score quickly allows these guys to get hot every game and go on personal 6-0 runs that break stalemates and provide quick 10-point leads plus momentum.. The "spurtability" of highly-assisted players and quick-scorers like bigs or jumpshooters requires gameplanning on proper double-teaming strategies, and the need to double-team craters the opponents' defensive rebounding, while wearing them down so they have less capacity for offense (winning the attrition battle).

In contrast to the spurtability of quick scorers (jumpshooters and bigs), defenses that face Lebron spend a lot of time just waiting for a high-screen roll to get executed, or waiting for Lebron to "survey" the floor and use a third of the shot clock (at least) to decide what to do.. This standing around and watching Lebron from a distance doesn't make Lebron the "focus" because the true "focus" is the guy that requires extra men to flow his way to stop him, aka adjustments... Otoh, "staying at home" (the standard strategy against a spotty-shooting ball-dominator) isn't an adjustment or the true focus of the defense, especially with equal-scoring partners and more dangerous closers to worry about.

Peak over 3 years per 100 possessions
Harden - 18' to 20' - 45.4ppg - 63% TS
Jordan 87' to 89' - 43.3ppg - 59% TS

I don't know why you have anything about team stats, Assisted %ages etc. It's completely irrelevant (I know you like to completely miss the point of a post). I said Harden could match Jordan as a scorer. I didn't say anything about him being a better player.

And, I know we are talking about only scoring, but Harden had Jordan covered in rebounds and assists for that 3 year run if you want to bring in other things.

And if you don't think LeBron is the guy that gets the most focus by the opposition then I don't know what to say.

^^^ everyone knows the fix is in.

Luka to Lakers... "Juice breaks" for Lebron and no testing.... 5x transactional activity... massive FT differential.

Accordingly, there's no motivation for teams to beat the Lakers unless they're one of the 4 teams actually vying for a title.

That’s actually wild that Harden was a more efficient scorer than Jordan both on a per possession and shooting % basis for their 3 year peaks. The Jordan GOAT narrative is collapsing with every new post and proper analysis of the data. If he didn’t have Phil Jackson and Pippen to help him get his rings he wouldn’t even be top 5.

First of all, every coach, player and media says that Jordan would average 50 in today's game... So I'll take their word that the hands-off, spaced-out, open paint, "beginner format" makes a big difference.

Secondly, who knows how many points MJ would average if just brought the ball up and went 1-on-1 with the lowest assisted rate and brand of ball the game has ever seen, while also having good-scoring teammates to attract defensive attention and boost his efficiency.

Thirdly, Harden had 3 "pippens" average 16-17 ppg with CP3, EGordo, and Capela, so MJ would've 3-peated with that due to playing the goat brand of ball instead of Harden's worst-ever brand and chemistry... This fool only won 45-50 games or whatever with that squad, while MJ 3-peated with less.. And again, MJ's would see the efficiency bounce from playing next to CP3 instead of Charles Oakley as the 2nd option.

Context matters all the time, not just when you want it to, so you're wrong on all fronts as usual.