QQ 4b pot vs maniac
5/5
~$1000 effective
CO - reg
SB is a total maniac. He plays way out of line, has a $4K stack in front of him, and is just spewing chips. Loves to apply max pressure and fires bluffs non-stop.
Hero MP(Q♠Q♣) raises to $20, CO 3bets to $80, SB calls, Hero 4bets to $260, CO folds, SB calls
Flop($600) 9♣ 8♦ 5♠
SB x, Hero bets $150, SB calls
Turn($900) K♦
SB checks, Hero - ?
Alright, here’s the thing with this guy - he LOVES to bluff people off hands. He takes crazy lines, barrels three streets with air, and constantly applies max pressure. But he rarely calls down light for a stack.
His flop calling range is super wide stuff like 9x, 8x, A7, A6, QT, QJ, JT, and all that junk. My concern is if I jam $600 here, that’s a pretty significant chunk in this game, and he might just fold his 9x hands.
16 Replies
PRE - looks good.
FLOP - looks good.
TURN - if we're never folding no matter what the river is, then I can see checking back to let V bluff river.
However, if he's chasing a draw, he's probably not folding if we jam, and it would suck if the river bricks and he doesn't bluff. Remember, he could have some thin value, and we could be chasing a draw.
All that said, the turn Kd might give him a better hand, and make it less likely he calls a jam with worse value. I probably just check back, and look to play some poker on the river.
If he bets less than half pot on the river, I think we have to call. If he jams on a diamond, I think we have to call, because I'd think he'd donk turn if he picked up a flush draw. I'd be more concerned if he jams on a board-pairing card, an ace, or even another Q, bringing in JT.
I think based on the info you provided checking is the best option.
I would check back the turn and be prepared to call what would be a half-pot-sized shove.
If a maniac loves to bluff, extend some rope. If you check here, from his perspective it looks like you have a hand like JJ/QQ maybe AQ sometimes.
He's the maniac, you're the reg who 4-bet, which means your range is TT+, AK, AQs and maybe a few bluffs like A5, 56 if you are polarized. On this flop, you would bet $150 with all of that. He's a maniac with $4k in front of him, so he might color outside of the lines, but I'm assuming he isn't oblivious, he's probably aware you're a reg and probably has a sense of a typical reg's 4-bet range.
So in his mind, you are barreling turn with AK, AA, KK, AQdd, and if you somehow have 67s. Because when facing a maniac, most regs are going to bet their value on the turn way too often assuming that the maniac is going to call too often or overly worried about making him pay with BDFDs. Which he might have picked up a BDFD, but I think if he did, he might have donked all in to put your QQ/JJ/TT hands to a really tough decision. He isn't the kind of player looking to realize equity by catching a FD, he is the kind of player who uses draws as an excuse to raise and have some insurance if he gets called.
When you check turn, he can cross off AA, AK, KK, etc., from the list of your likely holdings. By checking you greenlight him to bluff river with anything. He might think he can push you off QQ/JJ/TT and will probably turn 9x and worse into a bluff.
Mainiac who calls all 3 times??? Doesn't seem very mainiacy to me.
Spoiler
Hero checks
River($900) K♥
SB jams, Hero calls
SB has AJo
tbh think you should check the flop w reads
If we check back the flop, what do we do on the turn?
It seems to me our line starts looking a lot stronger if more money goes in OTT. Checking back turn and bluffcatching river is probably one of the most profitable lines when IP against hyper aggressive Vs IMO because it is something we would do with a ton of moderate made hands and completely missed hands.
If we check back the flop, what do we do on the turn
It seems to me our line starts looking a lot stronger if more money goes in OTT. Checking back turn and bluffcatching river is probably one of the most profitable lines when IP against hyper aggressive Vs IMO because it is something we would do with a ton of moderate made hands and completely missed hands.
call down on every run out, lol
if he somehow doesnt put in all of the money and there isnt an ace on the board, put all of your money in. if he bets a non ace turn and an ace comes otr and he checks, bet small.
call down on every run out, lol
if he somehow doesnt put in all of the money and there isnt an ace on the board, put all of your money in. if he bets a non ace turn and an ace comes otr and he checks, bet small.
Calling down requires V to be betting. We are in position and V checked. V also checked the turn. So what are we calling? If V comes out and bluffs the river after everything else checked through, it is probably a small bluff, like $300-$400. You won maybe half his stack.
Even if a check on the flop inspires the start of a bluff OTT, when hero checks back the flop, then calls say $200 OTT, what is heroes range? Hero isn't calling with a bluff, so from Vs perspective, hero range is a lot of Kx and FDs that would have checked flop and now picked up equity OTT. When the flush completes OTR, this isn't a spot V can bluff because H suddenly has pretty much only hands that are going to call down.
AP, hero c-bet the flop, which a large number of people will do with 100% of their range. So from V's perspective, H can have anything that would 3! pre. OTT hero checked back, that allows V to remove a lot of Kx and probably diamond combos, so now V can be comfortable trying to bluff a lot of rivers, confident that H doesn't have better than an underpaid.
As an aggressive player myself, I love when opponents try to get overly fancy trying to trap me because it allows me to determine when and where we play a large pot. And when H checks back this flop, heroe's range gets really condensed by the action on the turn, while Vs range is wide open. V can then simply jam with value knowing the H is going to make a hero call way too often, and back off with bluffs when H announces they have something OTT by raising or calling.
Hero doubled here because the c-bet on the flop is non-threatening and kept heroes range wide open. V faced with minimal sdv against a range that includes a lot of weak/moderate made hands went for the bluff believing that H would fold hands like AQ, 77, TT and maybe even believed hands as strong as QQ might fold sometimes. In this case H found the right call. If hero had taken actions that tighten his range earlier in the hand, then the odds of V jamming are a lot lower.
Calling down requires V to be betting. We are in position and V checked. V also checked the turn. So what are we calling If V comes out and bluffs the river after everything else checked through, it is probably a small bluff, like $300-$400. You won maybe half his stack. Even if a check on the flop inspires the start of a bluff OTT, when hero checks back the flop, then calls s
thats wonderful that you think this way but look what villain did in this hand
is alot of projection on a guy who is clearly looking to spew
Maniac is not a great description here.
I'd probably say "Calling station pre. who tries to bluff his way out."
Given CO is a reg. 4bet QQ is an interesting spot, esp. for the size.
But it's going to be difficult to lose money vs. a guy cold calling 3bets with AJo in SB, unless we start folding post when he bluffs his way out.
So at that point it's all minor tweaks:
Do we 4bet a bit bigger?
As sub. said, checking flop seems good because he's probably going to bet at least QJT987 (with his hand) and probably 65432 turns (in general) when we check behind and we have 1 SPR.
Would probably do it 100% OOP, but I could shrug bet 20-25% on flop IP too.
Pretending we are scared of the K when he blocks AK is obv. good and almost a cooler for him. But again, it's worth remembering that realistically all the money was made on his first action.
i dont understand. if ip has air he is going to bet the turn nearly 100% of the time ime (large amount of players are going to struggle to have much / any air here given pre action and board to begin with). am not exxagerating to say that v has 0 fold equity on this river vs almost anyone in any player pool. i dont really get the paragraphs dissecting the logic behind villains play. he cold called a 3b oop with mp still left to act (0% node) with a horrible / off suit / dominated hand to do it with then peeled the 4b as well with a hand with extreme rio oop vs an mp 4betting range, then floats flop to jam the river repping im not even sure bdfd hands that backdoored trips into a range that's never folding. the idea v is thinking in ranges or playing logically is wild to me.
probably ev of b25 and b0 are close at equilibrium (the closest sim i found was 200bb where mp opens sb 3bs bb cold calls mp 4bs sb folds and bb calls - ip is indifferent with QQ between b small and x; obviously this matters little given this hand should not occur in vacuum) i just think he's going to spew much harder vs check given description. when you see his hand should more or less confirm that checking somewhere / everywhere is going to be superior to betting vs him (should have been evident from the op anyways although hes somewhat colored by results).
pls continue to tell me that you are aggressive and you know that a check here represents an overpair so we must play 5d chess to trick him into putting in chips as if that remotely matters when we are playing vs extreme lag tard whale.
very simple pipeline to beat this player
give rope -> call down -> profit
worrying about theory or you know he knows you know level 12 thinking is counter productive
If V is going to float flop with 100% of his range, then yes we should bet flop 100% of our value. I don't see how that is getting into 5D chess. We're not trying to trick the opponent when we bet. Flop. We have the best hand we're betting into an opponent who puts money in way too light.
I see no virtue in trying to get fancy, and keeping the pot small when we have value. AP, hero setup a situation where Vs only possible bluff size is all in.
If we check flop, and now we are relying on V to put money in, which he might or might not. Why take that risk when V is apparently perfectly happy to call with absolutely anything on the flop?
The bet, check back, bluff catch line stacked V. That line is extending rope, and extending rope into a larger pot forcing V to either bluff all in or give up. If we check back the flop, we give him the option of trying to bluff smaller, and he may or may not try to bluff twice.
It seems to me that against somebody who is prone to bluffing, we want to make sure that they're bluffing into the biggest pot possible. So we should be looking to build the pot on the flop as often as possible. Especially when V is going to float light and try to steal from us later.
