Dealer Mucks Players Cards When He is All-in - Ruling? Thoughts?
This happened a few weekends ago and I forgot to post. Would love to hear some thoughts, possible rulings, etc. Before I share what the results were.
OTTH
V1 raises Pf in EP, a few callers, including V2 in LP who calls, V3 calls in the SB along with H who also calls in the BB
Flop is 823 - x through
Turn is 823A - V3 x, H bets 25 (prob 1/3 of the pot), V1 thinks for a few moments and sldies all his chips in, about $125 and vebralizes all-in. Dealer confirms his all-in, throws out the all-in button, and then proceeds to motion to next to act. Before next to act has even made a decision V1 states hey, you mucked my hand.
V1 instantly demands the floor to come over. Floor comes over, dealer tells floor what has happened, and tells floor that the hand is very much mixed in with the muck and not even on the top of the muck-pile.
While this is going on V2 clearly has a hand and is slightly annoyed by the whole situation. H has Ax fwiw and would not be calling the all-in but now that the hand is mucked...?
What does the floor rule? What should the floor rule? What should the player have done differently to protect his hand?
12 Replies
Don't leave his cards laying there where someone can grab them.
I've done this once while dealing. The player in seat 4 called all-in pre and kind of picked up and let their cards go towards me when somebody in seat 6/7 was asking the amount they were facing. It was ruled a dead hand and on the hook for the call amount, which was their whole stack.
As for this scenario, given that V1 spoke up quickly & no action has occurred after the all-in, I see 2 potential rulings. Most likely would be dead hand for V1, on the hook for $25.
The far rarer ruling would be for a floor to take V1 aside and ask them to name their two cards, rank & suit, and go into the muck and see if they're there. If they are, it's a live hand. If not, dead hand and on the hook for $25. This type of ruling is likely against room rules/gaming regulations in some places. Even if it's allowed, I don't believe what occurred in this hand reaches the requirements needed to make such a decision.
Protecting your hand one of the main/first player responsibilities listed in house rules, or during the first announcements of a tournament starting. The player could hold his cards, or have his hand/fingers over or in front of his cards. Or a chip/other card protector. Plenty of ways to protect your hand even when you're all-in.
He gets his $125 back, cards stay in muck, action on V2
Bet was uncalled. His hand is dead but he gets back his uncalled bet. He also gets a stern warning from floor to protect his hand at all times.
Is V1 in the 1 seat or 9 seat and the dealer inadvertently grabbed the cards?
I think the ruling should be $25 left in as well, no going through muck with action pending.
(As an aside, as a dealer I think personal card protectors are lame but I would almost never be moving a pair of cards with a protector on it.)
V1 gets $100 back and the hand proceeds with remaining players.
I've spent a lot of time playing and never once had a dealer muck my hand because I'm careful about where I put it. It's pretty rare for a dealer to reach over and grab someone's cards from next to the rail directly in front of a player. They were probably sitting right next to the muck and the dealer thought they were random cards that hadn't been mixed in yet. Many players have started holding their cards at all times with their fingertips, which is not a bad idea especially when all in and sitting next to the muck.
Got AI in a tournament and my cards mucked once very early in my live poker experience. I was in seat 1 (ldo?), I shoved, seat 3 or 4 called, and my cards were already gone. Floor was called, dealer was apologetic. Floor asked me to whisper my hand to him (red 10s), found them in the muck, and it was a live hand. Didn't hold, of course. At the time, I thought the floor decision was fair, but I'm not sure I support it now. Maybe it helped I had an easy hand to remember suits? Or that I was obviously newbie, might have been the first time I was in an actual poker room?
Now I always have a card protector or my fingers on my cards, decades later.
Results:
So floor is called (and imo is the worst floor in the room imo) and the dealer explains the situation. Floor looks flustered, states he will be right back, comes back 30 seconds later and states 'I am going to give a ruling and then say the table can make things right after I leave, but because the player's hand is dead his stack stays in the middle. With that being said I am going to walk away'.
Floor walks away, table agrees that V1 can take his stack back, V2 calls the 25, V3 folds. River is a blank, I x, V2 bets about 75 (pot size I believe), and I fold my weak Ace. V2 shows 88 for a flopped set. V1 states he had AK and would have lost.
Do we agree with floor's ruling? If you were V2 are you upset? Would you have demanded the stack stay in seeing how you basically had the nuts besides 45?
No. The rulings given above by others are standard. Hand is dead but any uncalled bets or raises are returned. In this case his bet was not yet called so is returned. Standard ruling.
That guy must be the worst floor in the country. Telling them his ruling but then basically telling them to work it out for themselves?
Luckily the table was smarter than the floor though, and I think they made the right call. While I wouldn't be upset by the ruling to make him leave in the $25 as suggested by others, I think that it doesn't really make can't sense. While "compromises" seem to be big these days, there's really no justification for that. The guy never called $25, he said "all in". Either all his chips should be in the pot or none of them.
You could remove the floor from the equation entirely and be no worse off. I go out of my way to make sure that nobody thinks that about my role at work. Seems like a recklessly precarious spot to put one's self.
