LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Imagine a league where Jason Tatum is the BEST player in the whole league..... Ant and Ja are #2 and #3.
This would be the weakest talent that the league has ever seen, BY FAR.
Accordingly, it's only the international players that are propping up the league's talent in today's game... Otherwise, the talent is a literal JOKE compared to previous eras.
Americans should be ashamed that they're SO MUCH WORSE at basketball than the 90's, where the 10th-best American player is better than the best American player today.
The reason that American players are so much worse in 2025 than the 90's is because everyone made a critical mistake in copying MJ's game - we assumed that 37 PPG and high-flying dunks meant that he was dominating the ball and going 1 on 5... No one copied his fundamentals and off-ball tendency.. Everyone just figured that he was doing fancy moves with the ball, so that's what everyone practiced... The result was a bunch of dumb AAU ball-dominators that can't play elite 5-man basketball or hold a candle to previous eras, or can't dominate international competition anymore.. So enjoy your joke of a league and the horrible brand of ball that Americans play, which drastically underperforms talent on the international stage - it's a stark contrast to previous eras.
Duh
Those guys would seem way better if all the international stars were removed.
For the first time in history, there are no generational players in the NBA that are American... All the generational players are international... Shaq, MJ and Duncan have been replaced by Jokic, SGA and Giannis... The 10th-best American player from any year in the 90's was better than the best American player today (Tatum)..
So the entire argument regarding "there's so much more talent now because of the international game", is more than offset by the cratering of American players, which still make up the majority of the NBA.. So the argument is exactly backwards - previous eras were more stacked with talent by virtue of superior American players.
The issue is that the hands-off, no-impede, and defensive 3 rules created an open paint and "no-touch" beginner format that doesn't produce the world's best players anymore, or generational players... It's a sad sight to see, so thanks Adam Silver - good job, good effort.... Otoh, the more old-school formats of the international game produce all the generational players nowadays, smh
Duh
Take away all the international players and the US players would look generational. Do you need this simple and obvious fact reworded a few more times?
Plus, SGA played in that rough and tumble war-torn country named Canada before going to UK.
Nice narrative tho.
Da Goat
Spoiler
Kobe played same time as Dirk, Nash, Yao, Parker, Ginobili, Pau, AK47, etc.
Jordan had Hakeem and then guys like Mutombo, Smits, and Schrempf and got to fade Sabonis. Beyond that, yeah we know the league was weaker.
Kobe played same time as Dirk, Nash, Yao, Parker, Ginobili, Pau, AK47, etc.
Jordan had Hakeem and then guys like Mutombo, Smits, and Schrempf and got to fade Sabonis. Beyond that, yeah we know the league was weaker.
Kobe or Jordan played much tougher American competition than today's best in Tatum, who is equal or worse than Reggie Miller for example.
By virtue of having far superior American players, previous eras were much tougher than today's era, where the best American player is worse statistically than Reggie Miller (a middling star in the 90's).
It's quite simple.. This is why the international comp argument falls flat - it's offset by AAU zero development dogsh*t American basketball, and therefore much worse players overall
Literally every player and coach in the world says that Lebron needs the ball to be effective and that he stifles teammates... How is this different that what I've said itt?
No one in the pro basketball industry is going to blatantly insult Lebron's skills like I do by calling him a ball-dominator or perennial loser, but they say things like he "needs" the ball to be effective, or that he "stifles" teammates - these are nice ways of saying the same stuff that I say.
The only difference is that I'v
u didnt respond what i wrote.
u just repeat incessantly your narrative .
the constant stories u tell yourself about me on what im thinking just so u can sleep at night is pretty funny....
And fwiw all your theories again, doesnt match what actually happened in the real world sadly and u just cant see it....
winning 4 rings and 4 final mvp isnt nothing shrug.
only 1 guy did better.
again u will never find a coach or player agreeing about how u see lebron, plain and simple.
well unless u look in the mirror while talking...
being the leader of a 1 man team blabla , regardless u got the assisted pass or buckets doesnt mean much when you have Russell with 11 rings at your number 2 either , when he got carried so many times in scoring...
i mean seriously , russell compare to pippen, never achieve once 20 ppg ( barely twcie in playoffs) , had a pitiful %FG , horrible in FT%, a guy so weak in scoring couldnt even pass ther ball great ( hell even MJ got morer assist lol..)
I mean putting russell at number 2 is fine but hating afterward pippen so much just doesnt make any sense at all.
u cant have it both ways but u think u can and that is your problem...
Facts
Jordan was not good enough to beat anyone in the GOAT Top 13 (according to FG)
He did beat the guy in 14th once (1-3 record all up).
Jordan also didn't beat anyone from 15 to 18.
He then beat Malone twice (19th).
He also didn't beat anyone from 20th to 24th.
Hmmm. To me it seems that the 90s were soft without many great players.
Good to see we convinced you that Kobe wasn't Top 5 material. Soon, you'll see him for what he is. Backend of the Top 20.
IT at 14 is amazing. The guy has one Top 6 MVP finish (5th in 1984).
Just because he embarrassed Jordan doesn't make him great.
Good to see we convinced you that Kobe wasn't Top 5 material. Soon, you'll see him for what he is. Backend of the Top 20.
IT at 14 is amazing. The guy has one Top 6 MVP finish (5th in 1984).
Just because he embarrassed Jordan doesn't make him great.
Aside from Jordan, Isiah is the only other guy that built a champion from nothing.. Low-producing rookies grew into meaningful producers on his watch because he's top 5 all-time at leadership, clutch, and handle (efficient handle)... The Bad Boys "dynasty" (a near-dynasty by my definition) were Isiah's creation and every teammate says this - he was the ringleader and soul of that team, while also being the only dominant player until 89' or so when Dumars started to come on.
Facts
Jordan was not good enough to beat anyone in the GOAT Top 13 (according to FG)
He did beat the guy in 14th once (1-3 record all up).
Jordan also didn't beat anyone from 15 to 18.
He then beat Malone twice (19th).
He also didn't beat anyone from 20th to 24th.
Hmmm. To me it seems that the 90s were soft without many great players.
MJ beat my #11 (Magic) and my #8 (Shaq).. So you're wrong already.
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Clutch-Time Stats Per Game (last 5 within 5), SORTED BY TURNOVERS
2009 Conference Finals
Analysis:
Lebron averaged 50% more turnovers in clutch-time than everyone that played in the 2009 Conference Finals, which includes 1.2 turnovers per game in clutch-time, or 11.5 turnovers per 48 minutes of clutch-time.
Becoming a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time makes it impossible to win a close series, while also having the goat defensive blunder of guarding Courtney Lee (instead of Hedo).. These were the ingredients that caused the massive upset loss and "f*ck up" according to Lebron (TO machine and defensive blunder), in addition to his excessive ball-dominance at high scoring levels, which prevents carrying the scoring load versus top teams (thereby needing all-time scoring help).
btw, everyone knows to put all the money on memphis tomorrow night right?
I'm a relative n00b to basketball in the grand scheme of things, but my god watching games in the 90s compared to now is hilarious.
The teams are just bad at defending. The offense is also terrible so you didn't need to be good at defending, the amount of awful shots that are taken is comical.
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Clutch-Time Stats Per Game (last 5 within 5), SORTED BY TURNOVERS
2009 Conference Finals
Analysis:
Lebron averaged 50% more turnovers in clutch-time than everyone that played in the 2009 Conference Finals, which includes 1.2 turnovers per game in clutch-time, or 11.5 turnovers per 48 minutes of clutch-time.
Becoming a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time makes it impossible to win a close series, while also having the goat defensive blunder of guarding Courtney Lee (instead of Hedo).. These
By my count he also averaged 63 points per 48 on 66 EG%.
I actually missed putting in "during their prime".
AIDS Magic and 23 year old Shaq don't count.
I'll give him tail-end IT though.
Magic was #2 for MVP in 1991, so no
And Shaq was in his prime more in 1996 than 12' Durant or 13' Duncan, so once again, you're clearly wrong.
Since Durant and Duncan were out of their prime when he beat them, the only guy that Lebron beat was Curry... And he certainly wasn't knocking off all-timers with bed-wetting teammates like MJ did - Lebron needed teammates to outplay the league MVP (unprecedented), while also having the preseason favorite for 6 straight years, which is twice as long as anyone else ever did.
^^^ That's a given for any elite 1st option in clutch-time, such as Kobe in the same conference finals (below), but the difference is that Kobe only averaged 0.3 turnovers, which is 2.9 per 48 minutes, while Lebron had 11.5 per 48, thereby preventing any team from winning a close series:
2009 Conference Finals
I'm a relative n00b to basketball in the grand scheme of things, but my god watching games in the 90s compared to now is hilarious.
The teams are just bad at defending. The offense is also terrible so you didn't need to be good at defending, the amount of awful shots that are taken is comical.
Basketball looked that way until 2005 when the lane opened up a bit from the new defensive 3 seconds rule while penetration was further enhanced from the hand-checking ban - these things allowed ballhandlers like Nash to shine, but that's the only reason the game looked better to casual fans... It wasn't until around 2017 that the game really started to open up to it's current format, and this happened around the same time as more rule changes like the no impede rule (can't bump cutters), which effectively turned the NBA into a contact-less format of basketball.. The contactless play and open, neat spacing looks more like a marching band or dance routine than basketball.. This beginner format cannot produce the best players, so all the best players come from the more old-school international formats.
