LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
^^^ That's a given for any elite 1st option in clutch-time, such as Kobe in the same conference finals (below), but the difference is that Kobe only averaged 0.3 turnovers, which is 2.9 per 48 minutes, while Lebron had 11.5 per 48, thereby preventing any team from winning a close series:
2009 Conference Finals
At least you have LeBron as an elite first option.
Anyway, here's Kobe from the 2010 Finals.
Lucky his turnovers are down.
Magic won the previous year in 1990, which validated his 2nd in 91', while Pippen was handed 3rd along with the goat dynasty in 94'.
Pippen simply wasn't good enough to build anything or earn anything outside of the ready-made dynasty and system... He's the "trust fund baby" of the NBA.
And we know that his weak scoring ability reduced a team's capacity to add talent, since you can't add good scorers beneath Pippen without basically supplanting Pippen as the top guy.. His weak scoring ability prevented "franchise player" status, and of course he wasn't the rare all-time floor general like Kidd or Magic that could mitigate the weaker scoring and still be a franchise player.
So you admit that Magic was in decline.
At least we agree there.
At least you have LeBron as an elite first option.
Anyway, here's Kobe from the 2010 Finals.
Lucky his turnovers are down.
You were wrong for posting about Lebron's scoring, since the winning formula was the same scoring level but with 1/4 the turnovers (Kobe).
Secondly, Kobe won 2 Finals with Mo Williams' scoring levels from a sidekick and massively outscoring his sidekick, while Lebron never did.... Lebron always needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, and therefore never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on the championship level)... His inability to carry the "star" category of scoring required more star help, such as a Pau-level player at THIRD option.
^^ More dumbness.... Magic was 3rd or worse in previous years, so 2nd in 91' is an increase according to your latest "logic" and deflection from getting destroyed over and over...
31 years old is where a player reaches their maximum combination of smarts and athleticism.. This is common knowledge to everyone but complete beginners.. MJ beat Magic at his apex by being the primary defender on him, while playing better offense than anyone ever played.
Recent Thread Cliffs
Lebron's turnover against the bulls is STANDARD for him and represents one of the biggest weaknesses of his game - turnovers and clutch-time turnovers and efficiency.
He's the biggest turnover machine in clutch-time ever, and this is why he lost the 2009 ECF... He had a ridiculous 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT of Game 4, which swung the entire series, while also turning into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time for the series.. This was 50% more turnovers in clutch-time than anyone else in the 2009 Eastern or Western Conference Finals..
Accordingly, there are apparently drawbacks to being a big guy that tries to dribble, such as turnovers, and also abnormal ball-dominance that reduces everyone's assists and hold-time compared to playing with normal forwards.. Lower assists from teammates produces low team assists and a brand that has a losing record with every type of viable roster (preseason favorites, Finals teams, all-star teammates, 1 or 2 seeds).
Tell me what I was wrong about with LeBron. All I did was post his actual stats.
It was sad that Magic had to get AIDs when he was just entering his prime.
You can see the drop off in points and FG%. Obviously something felt wrong during that season with his body.
It's very sad. Bird also getting old and injured.
Once again MJ getting lucky and got to play in the beginner format of the 90s.
I'm a relative n00b to basketball in the grand scheme of things, but my god watching games in the 90s compared to now is hilarious.
The teams are just bad at defending. The offense is also terrible so you didn't need to be good at defending, the amount of awful shots that are taken is comical.
What you see is what most people see. Basically a sport that had just become full time, with people learning how to play as a professional sport. Then they diluted the league with new teams. There just wasn't enough talent to go around to make good basketball.
Made it easy to win by putting 2 Top 10 players together (even had 3 in the last 3 chips). GOAT coach.
Very easy.
Beginner format.
Most people believe if you swap Jordan out with Drexler they win 6 or 7. I mean Drexler doesn't get suspended for illegal gambling so he has 2 more shots.
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2008 Jamison....... 2x All-Star..... #14 for MVP
2008 Pau.............. 1x All-Star
Conclusion: Lebron's ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles and weak chemistry that increases at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams... Lebron's inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more star help, such as a Pau-level player at 3rd option (Bosh, Love, Jamison)... The need for more star help hinders GM's from finding defensive help or good role players, thus preventing a great team like a dynasty, or winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise players (super-teams required).
You posted why he missed the 2009 Finals and Kobe made it - a 4x difference in turnovers
This difference in turnovers is strongly correlated to the difference in ball-domination, which is why Lebron's high scoring levels don't work against top teams (can't carry the scoring load).
He beat prime Magic and Malone........ and Shaq was in his prime compared to baby KD or fossil Duncan
So MJ carried the load against 3 top guys (Magic, Malone, Shaq), while Lebron was carried by comparison against the only top guy that he beat in his prime (Curry).
And no spacing is harder than spacing, while packed paints are harder than open paints, while hand-checking is harder than hands-off... So previous eras played in the tougher formats and therefore produced better players like MJ, Bird or Magic versus Tatum or Ant... lol.. it's night and day.. Today's beginner format produces garbage players... I feel sorry for you that this is what you have to watch and you never got to see real competition and basketball.
Facts...
I love the 2008 Jamison with the solitary 1 vote in the MVP race being a factor.
Having a weaker scorer like Pippen as the top guy prevents teams from building, since they can't add other good scorers without supplanting Pippen... Accordingly, the Bulls predictably cratered to barely .500 in 95'.
Otoh, the Bulls could grow with an elite scorer like Mitch as the top guy, since you can put other good scorers beneath him... Elite scoring ability increases the team's capacity to add talent and build, which is why it's critical for all franchise players, except the rare all-time floor general.
Jamison was very comparable to Pau and many people thought he was better at the time.. Yet Lebron couldn't win with him at 3rd option in 2010, or with Bosh and Love thereafter.. So he's nothing compared to Kobe, who nearly 3-peated with a Bosh-level player at sidekick, or even Jamison-level.. (Love was obviously superior to everyone and he's Lebron's biggest failure - many people actually called Love "bird" back then).
Never a better example of begging the question.
You assert non-sensical things as facts. Lately it's that you can't add scores below Scottie and that elite global talent proves US players currently suck.
Yes, Love = Bird.
Never a better example of begging the question.
You assert non-sensical things as facts. Lately it's that you can't add scores below Scottie and that elite global talent proves US players currently suck.
Tatum as the best US player proves that US players suck compared to prior eras
This is obvious... The best American player is worse than Reggie Miller.
Regarding Pippen - remember that he can't score outside the system he grew up in alongside the goat scorer (system player).... If Detlef Schrempf was added to the mix in 94', he's a 1a/1b with Pippen at worst, so this team has less talent capacity than a team with Schrempf as a clear-cut #2 behind Mitch Richmond.. The Mitch/Schrempf duo can start adding some defenders because they're good on offense with all the shooting and scoring they need... Otoh, the Schrempf/Pippen duo still needs more shooting, scoring and closing....
People said he was the next Bird and the best outlet passer since Bill Walton.
Facts
Yet Lebron went 1 for 4 with him....... at mostly THIRD option, wtf can't be serious, lol... how horrible is that... #LeFraud... Frontcourt ball-dominance is clearly the worst kind of ball-dominance.
Maybe the wort graphic of all time if you look into it for more than 2 seconds.
But it's pro Jordan, so lets not do that.
It's all facts - Lebron had far more help that included 3rd options who compared to Jordan's 2nd, and 2nd options that compared to Jordan.
Wade had the most dominant Finals ever in 2006 and compared to Jordan or Kobe, while AD is 2 spots behind Jordan in career PER (#4 all-time)..... And Kyrie is in the conversation for goat scorer or goat "bag" along with MJ, while outplaying "young MJ" or the peak Curry... So there's no comparison - Lebron had franchise guys at 2nd and third option, while Jordan had a secondary producer like Klay Thompson at 2nd option.
Maybe the wort graphic of all time if you look into it for more than 2 seconds.
But it's pro Jordan, so lets not do that.
The numbers speak for themselves:
Career PER
4. AD
24. Wade
36. Kyrie
67. Love
75. Bosh
148. Pippen
172. Jamison
WS/48
15. AD
76. Love
81. Kyrie
82. Wade
88. Bosh
145. Pippen
N/A Jamison
BPM
17. AD
27. Wade
35. Kyrie
38. Pippen
63. Love
144. Bosh
N/A Jamison
TS
51. AD
81. Kyrie
127. Bosh
130. Love
245. Wade
N/A Jamison
N/A Pippen
Crazy LeBron had a better third option than when the league was barren of talent.
Also, bc I'm objective, you should prbly mention that two of the top 75 MJ played with were the corpse of Parrish and Gervin's last year in the NBA (before Euro payday) at 33.
