1/2 Flopped 2P vs maniac and unexpected shove
Hero image is tight mixing between aggressive/passive, maybe a tad too nitty especially for V1. But has some respect from the table (has been playing for 4h+)
V1 on UTG is a young maniac lad who sat one hour ago. He plays 80% of hands and keeps talking a lot between every hand. He is playing almost A2C and shoved preflop earlier with A5o vs Hero’s KK. We ran twice and he lucked out to a straight in the second one - we chopped the pot.
V2 on BB is in his first orbit, just sat down, no reads. WG in his 40s probably Eastern European
Effective stacks - V1 £200, V2 £250. Hero covers both.
OTTH
Hero sees 96hh on MP
V1 on UTG raises to £12. H calls. V2 on BB calls
Flop J96ccs (£37)
V2 checks, V1 bets £25. Hero raises to £60, v2 shoves, v1 tanks a bit and folds, Hero?
Rationale for my raise:
Spoiler
wanted to mini raise to induce a call from V1 who can be betting with air or Jx easily. Didn’t expect V2 to shove.
9 Replies
Snap call.
PRE - just fold.
FLOP - just call the initial bet from V1. There's no reason to raise with V2 still in the hand, especially not if we think V1 is betting with air or Jx.
Think about the logic in your reveal, "I think my opponent is bluffing, or betting worse for value, so I'm going to raise, rather than let him continue." It makes no sense.
V2 check-jamming is pretty strong. I don't know if I could find the fold with bottom 2P, but I'm expecting to be shown a better hand more often than not.
So V1 is playing ATC, and you're calling from MP with 96s... I don't need rationale for your flop raise - preflop is what I don't understand.
If V1 is stepping out of line, we should be 3! frequently with a wider but still strong range. Or if V1 is calling almost any 3!, then we should just 3! a normal range with larger sizes. Whichever strategy we choose, 96s isn't a reasonable candidate. We shouldn't be calling, especially with weak hands, because V1 raising ATC has all 46% of hands that are better than 96s in his range.
AP we have to call. Hope V is on a FD and doesn't have a set.
Adding onto my own comment, and Yamihere's...
Calling with 96s pre is terrible. If we were super-deep, and had a substantial skill edge, it would still be unnecessary, and I'd be more likely to 3B than call. If we're just trying to give action, or doing it for the lolz, fine, but we should mostly just be folding that trash.
On the flop - like I said, raising doesn't make any sense if we think V1 is betting worse for value or bluffing. We want him to keep doing that, not stop him from doing that, by taking the betting lead away. If V flopped a monster, he'll be ecstatic that you raised. If he was FOS or betting a worse hand for value, he'll be happy you let him off the hook.
"Inducing a call" isn't a thing, as far as I know. If anything, I'd think we might want to raise to protect our hand from the draws, and / or to possibly to induce a check-raise from V2 or a re-raise from V1.
In either scenario, we should probably fold to the 3B. But choosing a small size of just over 2x the c-bet is going to muddy the water enough to make us possibly level ourselves into continuing when we shouldn't. So if we're going to raise, for value and protection, I think we'd want to raise big, at least 3x, if not 4x or more, not min-click it.
V2's x/r over the PRF's c-bet and our raise is SUPER strong. Yes, the board is so wet and connected that he could have a TON of draws, such that we should probably never fold, but...every instinct I have says we should fold.
Yes, we block J9, 99, and 66, and V can have a bazillion draws that want to see all five, but he flatted from the BB, and it's 1/2, so he could be defending with ATC, including all the off-suit J9 combos, plus some J6s, and of course it's still possible he has JJ, 99, or 66, no matter how unlikely that may be.
Even if he is on a draw, his best combo-draws are going to have 14 outs, and I'm not sure it's possible for him to have less than 8 outs. So we're either way behind a set or better 2P, slightly ahead of his worst draws, or basically flipping with his best draws.
Sorry to pile on, but I think this one is a hot mess.
Thank you all for the honest replies - in particular docvail's detailed explanation. Not always pleasant to hear but always a learning experience and hopefully that will help me get better at this game. It's clear I need to work on my preflop ranges.
On the flop - like I said, raising doesn't make any sense if we think V1 is betting worse for value or bluffing. We want him to keep doing that, not stop him from doing that, by taking the betting lead away. If V flopped a monster, he'll be ecstatic that you raised. If he was FOS or betting a worse hand for value, he'll be happy you let him off the hook."Inducing a call" isn't
My thoughts at that time. Yes I think V1 is betting with worse or bluffing with an overcard. From his earlier play - I didn't want to scare him off by betting 3-4x or more, and I was somewhat confident he would call a small raise with worse, but fold to a big raise. Post-hand, I asked what he would have done if V2 hadn't shoved, and he said he'd have called. If we were heads up I would probably bet or raise all in on the turn on any non-completed draws. However my biggest mistake was perhaps not properly accounting or thinking about a plan for V2.
Results:
Spoiler
Hero folds. V1 goes mad and asks what the hell V2 has. V2 says he was on a flush draw. We discuss the hand a bit more and V1 says he had QJ.
So another thing to work on, as it seems calling was the clear consensus here.
