Why is it still happening?
I just went to Las Vegas to play in the WSOP Circuit (and some tournaments at the Venetian).
At my first WSOP Circuit tournament at the Horseshoe I bought in and there were only 2 other players at my table at the start of the tournament. They wouldn't let us play until there were 4 players at the table. So we had to wait 7 minutes and a half to play our first hand.
This is incredibly unfair to the players who aren't playing considering that most of the other tables were playing at the first level which here was 100/100 with a 100 BB ante.
During the time we were waiting I went up to a Floor and told him that it was unfair. He said he understood but that is the way it is.
The funny thing is that at a table next to us there were only 3 players but there were two stacks on the table for players who bought in and hadn't yet shown up. The Floor at that table declared that they couldn't play until a 4th player actually sat down. That was wrong but it went on for about 3 or 4 minutes until a different Floor came over and told them they could start with 5 stacks on the table but only 3 people.
As a computer programmer / system designer I am stunned that their system doesn't fill in seats at the start of a tournament in an even way per table. There were tables that had 6 players, some that had 5 and some that had 4 when our tournament started. Our table had 3 players and there was one other table that took a few minutes to start because they had just 3 players. If I had written the system all tables would have had at least 4 players. Once the minimum was hit for all tables if they want to make it completely random again that would be fine with me (though I think it is best to keep it as even as possible so the tables are all within one player at the start).
The same thing happened at the $1,700 circuit main event on Day 1B. It took 3 minutes to start at my table while all other tables had already started. The difference here was that they waited about 15 minutes after 11am to start the tournament because (I think) there were several tables that had 3 players or less and they didn't want to see a huge disadvantage happen. I failed to make Day 2 so I bought in on Day 1C and it almost happened again. But it seemed that the Floors waited again for 15 to 20 minutes to start the tournament and this time basically all tables started playing when they started the clock (ironically our dealer took a minute once the clock started to shuffle and deal).
I have had this happen in other places. The worst was at the Venetian before Covid when they were in the adjoining convention center. It took over 10 minutes in a $600 tournament to start at our table. But since then it hasn't happened at the Venetian again if I remember correctly. I can't remember it ever happening at Foxwoods (OK it did happen once or twice when they used to start new tables with only newcomers but now they take players from other tables when they start a new table).
I just wish that every room would adjust before starting a tournament. If there was a table that wouldn't be allowed to start because they are a player short then move players from tables that have the most players. Yes the computer system will assign a seat to a player that is already occupied but when that happens the Floor can bring them to a table that already had a player moved (from a seat that the player had been moved from which they can write down to keep track of).
13 Replies
It's likely that the tables were filled evenly, but players simply didn't show up. I don't know why people don't wait until they're actually ready before registering, but it happens a lot. Or they're satellite winners, or registered the night before because it was convenient. I've seen TDs try to deal with this by shuffling players around but it tends to become a confusing mess.
Tables that are added after the tournament starts tend to be short for a while because they add them 2 or more at a time and continue sending some players to existing tables. They don't want to open one table and have a bunch of people who registered at the same time playing together. That would open the door for collusion - I wait for them to add a table, then we register together. It just sucks if players aren't registering fast enough to fill the tables quickly.
Sometimes, for higher profile or higher buyin events, they will fill every table and pull blinds when they need to open a new one. This is better in terms of fairness and keeping tables full, but it requires extra manpower and often people don't like being moved.
They should start with fewer tables open and more players at those tables.
Tourneys cater to late reg.
It's likely that the tables were filled evenly, but players simply didn't show up. I don't know why people don't wait until they're actually ready before registering, but it happens a lot. Or they're satellite winners, or registered the night before because it was convenient. I've seen TDs try to deal with this by shuffling players around but it tends to become a confusing mess
At the WSOP Circuit and WSOP in the summertime they now put stacks on tables in front of the seats that are purchased but where the person hasn't shown up. The dealers are given a copy of the purchase ticket so they know which seat it is and can ID the player that sits down in the seat. These stacks will be blinded off. This is to make sure that the number of players at each table is known and if it is 4 or more will allow the start of play. So the tables were definitely not filled evenly.
I was in one event last summer where the stack was on the table for 2 hours at the start of the tournament and after the first break (I think though it could have been the second break) was removed from the table. Which I didn't understand. But still it happened.
At the WSOP Circuit this time they definitely had more tables than made sense for the start. Then after a while (like an hour or so) they filled up all of the tables and started adding new tables. When they added a new table they took a player from like 6 or 7 different tables and one new player and started up. The first tournament I played in we had 5 players moved from our table before the first break.
I do prefer not being moved and not having a lot of other players being moved but at the WSOP Circuit there was no way to avoid it because of all of the late entries and rebuys.
Because it would cause more problems than it would solve.
The casino would rather you lose 7 minutes of level 1 vs having supervisor move people around to balance tables at level 1.
Even worse if the tournament is being held in a temporary location which won't be tied to a bravo system to know if someone is sitting or not.
Because it would cause more problems than it would solve.
The casino would rather you lose 7 minutes of level 1 vs having supervisor move people around to balance tables at level 1.
Even worse if the tournament is being held in a temporary location which won't be tied to a bravo system to know if someone is sitting or not.
As far as I am concerned this is incredibly unfair to the players who are losing 7 minutes (or more or really any minutes) of tournament time. We paid to play and we aren't being allowed to.
Basically moving players at the very start of the tournament doesn't affect them at all. They haven't yet had a chance to get reads on players at their table. I would have no problem if I were at a table of six players and were asked to move to a table that had 3 players (where I would be the fourth).
The other thing I will point out is that Floor Supervisors are moving a lot of players anyway before the first break.
I will tell you a story of what happened at Foxwoods before they started moving players to new tables. I bounced out of a tournament and bought in at 6:30pm to a tournament that had started at 6pm. I was assigned a new table where there was another new player sitting and waiting. After about 5 minutes I called a Floor over and asked why we were waiting. After another 5 minutes I called a Floor over and asked if I could get my money back. He told me I could and I did.
What size tournament is this?
The first WSOP Circuit tournament I played was the $600 Senior Day 1. There was only one Day 1 and there ultimately were 293 players. I don't remember exactly but I think there were like 15 tables set up at the very beginning at 11:00am. There could have been more. There were several tables that had only 3 players (and we had 2 for a while but they hadn't started the tournament yet even though it was after 11am). I was at one of the tables that had 3 players at the start.
The WSOP Circuit Main Event was $1,700 and I played it on Day 1B and Day 1C. On Day 1B there were ultimately about 200 players and on Day 1C about 300 (maybe a bit more). Ultimately there were 774 players total. On Day 1B I believe there were 12 tables set up (but again it could have been more). Most tables had 4 or 5 players. A couple had 6 players at the start and there were two tables that had 3 players and one table that had 5 players but only 3 were present and the other two had stacks on the table. I was at one of the tables that had 3 players. They did delay the start of the tournament for about 15 minutes but when they started there were still tables that had only 3 players. The funny thing was that the floors saw a huge crowd of people walking towards the tournament room and assumed there would be a number of people signing up to play so they started the tournament. But the entire crowd took a left turn and went towards the elevators to get to their hotel rooms or some kind of bridge to a place where tourists hang out. On Day 1C again there were tables that had only 3 players but the floors held the start of the tournament for about 20 minutes and at that point all tables had 4 players so everyone could begin at the start.
If you are talking about the Foxwoods tournament, there were probably 15 tables that were full when I bought in. They could have assigned 6 or 7 players to move to the new table (which they do now when they create a new table).
I can speak to Bravo tournies. When I ran weekly tournies, we'd usually only make 4 or 5 seats available to be sold at each table. The bravo program will easily let you designate seats 2, 4, 6 and 8 at each table (for example). As those seats fill up, you can then add seat 3 at each table.
It's a balancing act and you're relying on knowing how many players are in line at the cashier to buy tickets, what the prize guarantee is, and how many entries you expect to end up with.
Not only do you not want to be pulled away as a floor to rebalance tables during level 1 or 2 as it prevents you from monitoring the other seats that are assigned, but it also takes you away from potential floor calls.
More importantly, players hate getting moved to rebalance during early levels, especially when they see the seat they just left get filled by a new player a couple minutes later.
As to the point of having to sit because your table doesn't have enough players, the solution is easy enough, as long as new players are constantly joining. Let's say I've sold seats 2, 3, 5, 6, and 8 on every table. But at your table, 2 of the players haven't taken a seat yet. Rather than open seat 7 on all tables, I'll open both seat 1 and 7 specifically at your table. This ensures that the next 2 entrants will sit at your table. Once they're filled, I'll open seat 7 at every other table, and so on.
I can speak to Bravo tournies. When I ran weekly tournies, we'd usually only make 4 or 5 seats available to be sold at each table. The bravo program will easily let you designate seats 2, 4, 6 and 8 at each table (for example). As those seats fill up, you can then add seat 3 at each table.It's a balancing act and you're relying on knowing how many players are in line at the cas
I understand the issue for Floors. It would make things more difficult while hands are being played.
But it still doesn't explain why this isn't being done before any hands are played. After about a 15 minute delay before the start of the tournament (in other words no hands had been played at 11:15am in a tournament that was supposed to start at 11am) the Floors could easily have moved two players while no hands were being played and allowed everyone who had bought in to start playing. All they had to do was write down the seats the players had been moved from so that when a player was assigned a seat that was occupied they could easily seat them in one of the seats that had been opened.
More importantly, players hate getting moved to rebalance during early levels, especially when they see the seat they just left get filled by a new player a couple minutes later.
I do hate being moved to rebalance after I have been playing for a a while at a table because all of my impressions of people I have played with will be lost. But if I am moved during the first level I wouldn't really care especially if I am being moved to a new table that is just being started up where all of us will be at the same disadvantage. What I hate is when I am moved to a table where everyone there has been playing with each other for a while. What I wouldn't hate at all is being moved prior to the tournament start especially if it meant that everyone who bought in would be allowed to play - the alternative is epically unfair.
As to the point of having to sit because your table doesn't have enough players, the solution is easy enough, as long as new players are constantly joining. Let's say I've sold seats 2, 3, 5, 6, and 8 on every table. But at your table, 2 of the players haven't taken a seat yet. Rather than open seat 7 on all tables, I'll open both seat 1 and 7 specifically at your table. This ensures that the next 2 entrants will sit at your table. Once they're filled, I'll open seat 7 at every other table, and so on.
This wasn't an issue at the WSOP circuit and WSOP events in general. If a person buys in their stack will be immediately placed on the table. Even if they don't show up they will be considered to be there so if there are 4 stacks on the table regardless of how many actual people are there the table will be allowed to start. OK a Floor messed this up at one table that didn't get to play with 3 people there and two stacks on the table for people who had not yet showed up. But 3 minutes in another Floor came over and let them start playing.
The biggest problem at the WSOP Circuit was that there were no new players coming to buy in and play after the tournament started. Well even before the tournament actually started. So between 11am (when the tournament was supposed to start) and 11:15am (when the tournament actually started) there were not a lot of players buying in. Similarly after 11:15am there were virtually no new entries which is why it took over 7 minutes for us to start at our table.
They should start with fewer tables open and more players at those tables.
Tourneys cater to late reg.
Right, this is one of the reasons I rarely play tournaments. IMO they should just not let anyone play who's not there on time. If the room had some problem that made people late to the table, then hold everything for 15 minutes or whatever. But everyone starts playing at the same time, and no one is allowed to start after that. If you want to be generous, give the prepaid people who didn't make it on time part of their money back.
I do hate being moved to rebalance after I have been playing for a a while at a table because all of my impressions of people I have played with will be lost. But if I am moved during the first level I wouldn't really care especially if I am being moved to a new table that is just being started up where all of us will be at the same disadvantage. What I hate is when I am moved to a table where everyone there has been playing with each other for a while. What I wouldn't hate at all is being moved prior to the tournament start especially if it meant that everyone who bought in would be allowed to play - the alternative is epically unfair.
I believe that you don't mind moving in this scenario. But surely you can believe me when I tell you that some other players absolutely hate it. And they're not quiet about it.
I always liked tournies that gave bonus chips to players who are there for the start of the tournament, just to get a decent number of players seated right away and to avoid just what you hate. Predictably, the bravo software is not well-equipped to handle different players having different starting stacks.
Sometimes a tournament seems to just be set up for failure. We used to have a satellite tournament that would run semi-regularly. It never got a lot of interest. Invariably we'd get to a point where we'd be down to 8 players left while late registration was still open. The players would be understandably upset that we wouldn't combine them to a single table. But if we did combine them, then you could just about guarantee that 2 late entrants would suddenly appear, and one of them would be stuck waiting for an empty seat. And anytime a player went all-in, his cards would hold up.
Right, this is one of the reasons I rarely play tournaments. IMO they should just not let anyone play who's not there on time. If the room had some problem that made people late to the table, then hold everything for 15 minutes or whatever. But everyone starts playing at the same time, and no one is allowed to start after that. If you want to be generous, give the prepaid p
This is literal insanity. So if I buy into a $1000 tourney, and there is a car accident that snarls traffic and I'm 5 minutes late, it's generous to not allow me to play and give me SOME money back?
I can at least grasp the "no one can register after start time" mindset, but "the bathroom line was long, you were 1 minute late back, you forfeit your spot and maybe all of your money" is just policy-making based on some hyperactive revenge fantasy b/c of mild annoyance and that's not how we should do anything.
I watched some (too much) of the 2024 TDA summit which is where Tourn rules are formed and changed; and the issue of when to start tables was discussed at length. You can find it on Youtube. Part 1 was 8+ hours.
From what I remember, the TDA rule is, 'half a full table, rounded down.' So 8 and 9 handed tables start when 4 people are there, and the reason for this lack of early balancing according to the TDs is that people complain about getting moved too much.
