5/10 - overpair on monotone board

I’m never stoked but I’m calling here given the following:

1) timing of click back is too quick
2) recreational players love to slow play monsters
3) holding back 100 when it makes little difference tends towards weaker holding vs strength from rec players
4) rec players no matter what position you raise from range you as {AK} so why are they shoving with value and not milking

You have equity to FH and flush if behind - it’s not awesome but considering lack of likely 2pair combos they rep too thin

If they are this bad it won’t be hard to stack them in an easier spot but that’s a question of time and there’s never enough of it

Your image matters as well.

Without knowing more, I fold this turn.

When is see these mono boards, i tend to believe they keep everyone honest.

This looks like he wants to gii as quickly as possible, so fold turn - Depending on table image and Villain folding flop sometimes is a boss move.

Never folding here, we have outs no matter what hand he has (unless he has 55 lol)

Its important to note that recs at low stakes are generally very passive, recs at 5-10+ are usually overaggro, overbluffing. While this is probably a fold vs typical 1/3 passive rec, vs a 5/10+unknown rec, its a stack off at this stack depth.

Also, i personally would x back flop but solver prefers betting small so wtver.

Yeah, but we are going to have only a few outs a lot of the time.

I think this is close. It would be great if you knew whether Villain was the sort to player who would call in the SB with a lot of Ax hands preflop, even with two limpers behind. That's not great, of course, but against some players, I would expect to see A♣x a a lot of the time here. But probably not often enough to continue.

I would make it at least 60 preflop when ISO raising, you got two limpers, you are IP and you have a great hand.

I would most likely check back the flop - even if he is fishy and his range is wide, a lot of his garbage hands with one club will have a good amount of equity against you and this is not a board where you can bet three streets for value anyway. In general I check mono flops back A LOT esp. with overpairs without the flush draw.

Data from online pools shows that fish underbluff monotone flops significantly - I would honestly just fold to the Flop click back, but if you call I think it's still fine esp. if Villain has been spewy.

Turn I would def snapfold. No brainer.

What is our image? Generally, versus a middle-aged Asian rec who seems actiony, I am not folding. I just sigh put the last $100 in. He could be doing this w/ lots of hands or just trying to bluff you off your over pair.

I'd personally call it off, especially with the board pairing

You realize that I DO have the flush draw, right? Folding to the flop raise seems pretty heavily exploitive, and should require a more reliable/specific read. Even if he's underbluffing, we don't know if he might be getting spazzzy with hands we beat (TT/JJ, Ac with a pair), and we often have a lot of equity when behind.

My bad, I misread your cards. If you have the FD its never a fold when facing a raise.

I'm ok c-betting flop, but 50 seems a bit large: I'd go 30-40. Checking back is also fine.
His c/r is also quite big; I doubt we beat much value, possibly only TcTx and JcJx, assuming V plays these so aggressively.
On the other hand, he might be bluffing with some naked Ac, although in this case his call preflop would be very questionable.
Anyway, I agree we have to call (we might fold right here if we have a read that V plays rather passive/face-up).

OTT, when the board pairs and at this SPR, I'd expect V to slow down both with his bluffs and boats.
If so, but who knows in reality ..., then we are left with small made flushes and overpairs with a club.
Also, betting 500 into 570 and leaving 100 behind doesn't make any sense: V is most probably a fish, the question is which kind of fish...

Without reads I'd probably find a tight fold, although gii for 90bb effective cannot be terrible, imo.

Ive read the same thing but im curious about thresholds for categorization - are we taking fish as ALL players below our ability level? or are there multiple buckets of categorization wherein the bottom/worst are fish who underbluff and then a step up could be a somewhat competent but not great opponent who would bluff the monotone board but represent a smaller % of the player pool etc etc?

Hero ships and hopes Villain folds.

But seriously, I'm having trouble coming up with a range that we beat here. One-pair hands are unlikely unless it's specifically, like, A♣ 9x, and that probably doesn't cold-call preflop.

On the other hand, non-nut flushes and sets-turned-boats make a ton of sense.

I'm actually not sure on calling the flop raise.

In most spots it's fine making a tight fold to a strong-seeming raise from a rec, but I think here, on the flop, our hand is too strong and we just have a ton of equity. Checking back flop would be fine, but bet/folding is pretty much out of the question.

Gross. I hope the river was a club 😉

Hey mate, sorry for the late response, I haven't checked out this tread for some time.

So when I talk about fish, the MDA definition for a Fish is any player that has VPIP/PFR gap of 14 or higher, but this is of course impossible to see in a live game since we don't have the stats, but you can still determine the Fish by how they play - loose and passive preflop.

The postflop tendencies can be categorized into multiple subtypes, but I prefer to stick to general categoriazation (fish/reg) and just determine if I see this person being aggressive or not. However, in general, a Fish profile (no matter if more passive or aggro) tends to overbluff a lot of game tree nodes actually, especially Turn and River, but some specific board textures and sizings are underbluffed.

ah yah thank you for comin back and replying -

im familiar with the categorization you mentioned l, especially the gap between vpip and pfr - playing enough online you do get a sort of intuitive sense of where folks are within magin of error but other info you get love helps shift folks into proper category easily.

i was trying to bifurcate the fish category as a split between the 34/10/1 type fish and then someone who is a reg, maybe even somewhat conpetent post flop but is still something like 29-36/16/5 - the reg fish vs the absolute bottom of the barrel "watches youtube poker once" type player

theres a class of players i see in my rooms that are aware enough of board texture but then they do tend to overbluff those spots in line with other spots emntikend above as common and then theres the passive check call "gotta see all 5 cards" type

SO GROSS... man without knowing too much about V he is either there already or he has the Ac and he's trying to buy the pot we do have outs but man this is just horrible. If you are a one bullet warrior like me I would probably fold without any reads. If you have another bullet I think we can gamble.

Grunch:

PRE - really interesting that V cold flats from the SB. Would be helpful to have more of a read on him, anything that might give us some indication about his likely range.

FLOP - with the Qc in our hand, I think I'd prefer to either check back, or bet smaller, like 30.

My reasoning is that we could use some info from V. If we check back, we'll see if he leads turn, and for what size. Alternatively, if we bet smaller, it puts a ton of pressure on him to continue with a wider range, or raise with his nutted hands.

Also, as the PFR, I'd think our range is going to be weighted more towards PP's than SC's that may have flopped a flush. It sucks to have a big PP with a club, and get check-raised on a monotone flop.

As played, I'd be hating life when he x/r's. I don't think I could fold, but I'd be done with it if he barrels big on brick turns.

TURN - yuck. He's repping so strong. Even if he was just raising 95 or 53 on the flop, now he's boated up.

We've got four outs to make a boat if he's got the nut flush, but only two outs vs 95/53. If he just flopped a low flush, we've got 11 outs, I think, unless he's got a redraw to a straight flush.

Possibly this is how he plays TT/JJ? The old, "flat pre, blast off on low boards" line?

I dunno. If he's doing this with worse for value or just a draw, he's maniacal. Unless and until we have that read, I think we should fold.

A rule of thumb I use is that if I am unsure about V being a whale/fish, I just assume it is a reg. If you stick to a strategy/line versus them that is correct in theory, it is still going to be winning if he actually is a Fish, but trying to adjust too much (to exploit a Fish) versus someone who in reality isn't a Fish could be really bad and lead to punts.

If I am sure he is a Fish/Whale = I use the strategy I normally use versus Fish
If I am not sure or he is somewhere in between = I use the Reg strategy