Similar to "Who Shows First", But a Bit Different

My rule on this, if someone says “you’re good” I assume good faith and show my hand, until they show me they are actually angle shooting and show me a winner.

Usually people who do this are not great at poker, so I want them to keep doing hopeless bluffs and floats and so I’m motivated to embarass them as little as possible.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I guess I should say "I paid to see if my aces were good". Not really the point of my post, but okay.

I follow the same policy as checkraisdraw. I typically just show my hand if someone says you're good as long as it's not someone who has angled me in the past. The unwritten rule that it's polite to turn your hand over is to save your opponent the potential embarrassment of showing a punt/bad bluff.

Really though your opponent was being the far bigger douche. Once they say you're good and you don't immediately turn over your hand it's on them to either show or muck.

I don't know how the verbal exchange went down after you said, "I called you sir," but if three players at the table called you a douche I can only assume something you said afterwards likely had something to do with it. If all you did was wait and say, "I called you sir," that's a minor faux pas at worst.

first of all: you did nothing wrong here, 100% within the rules, all good.
the point the other guys are making is more of an etiquette thing, but it goes both ways, and i'd like to add a more nuanced view on it:

if this hand happens vs a whale/fish/ or otherwise rec that i most likely never see again, i'll happily extend that courtesy, i want him to be happy, and most importantly i want the game to continue smoothly (and fast). remember why he doesn't want to show: he got caught bluffing, in his eyes that's a little embarrassing, so he'd rather not show his hand.

if it happens vs another reg, i force him to show or fold, very simple. he knows the rules, he knows it's his showdown first, and since i very likely play against the guy more often, it's worth it to see what he is bluffing with. if he doesn't want to show he can fold, no problem, but then i can fold too, and he doesn't get to see what i called him with. why would he get to see my hand if i can't see his? easy, case closed.

Exactly. On a handful of occasions in the past month, I've seen players bet the river HU and then automuck as soon as the bet is called.

Consequently, I'm in the camp of wait until he shows. If he doesn't show, just say 'show or muck.'

In the olden days the winning hand had to be shown regardless of whether the river bettor (Villain) showed or not. So I would always show my hand if somebody said they missed so they wouldn't have to show their hand. The reason I did this is so that I would be given the same courtesy when I bluffed and got called so I wouldn't have to show my hand. The benefit is that the whole table won't get to see the hand and the good players won't be able to hone in on my exact ranges.

Today though things are different. The TDA rules for tournaments are such that the winning hand does not have to be shown if all other players have mucked their hands at showdown. When I am in a tournament and I have called a river bet and the Villain does not want to show his hand but wants me to show mine, I will not. If he says he missed I don't respond. If he continues to not show his hand (regardless of if he is asking me to show mine or not) I will tell him that he either should show his hand or muck it. If he still doesn't do either (and again regardless of whether he is saying anything or not) I will call the Floor over. It has never come to the point where I have to ask the Floor for a clock but if the other player still didn't show or muck and the Floor didn't initiate a clock countdown, I would ask the Floor for a Clock.

In some cardrooms in cash games winning hands still must be shown. In these rooms I will always show my hand when a player has said "I missed" or "A high" or whatever (unless the player has previously lied about having missed at which point I will go through the above process which has basically only happened once even though I would have had to show my winner anyway).

When I don't have to show a winner I will always take care not to muck my hand until the Dealer has put the Villain's mucked hand in the muck pile. On more than one occasion the Dealer did not do that so I then will ask the Dealer to do that. One time in a WSOP event I had to call the Floor over and the Floor insisted that the dealer put the mucked hand in the muck pile. The reason this has to be done is that a mucked hand that is not in the muck pile is still live. So if the dealer pushes you the pot and you muck your hand and the dealer puts your hand in the muck pile and Villain retrieves his hand which is not in the muck pile and turns it over, Villain wins the pot. Even if it is now in your stack.

Ultimately this issue is not about wasting other people's time. It is about being taken advantage of by a Villain who wants to see your hand (in a situation where the entire table will get to see it). So the fault of wasting time is not yours, it is Villain's. If people at the table (or in this thread) think differently I just don't care. I will not allow myself to be bullied or taken advantage of.

Depends on the game and the opponent. You can insist on muck or show, but it's bad for the game in general. There are certain players where i would definitely have to institute it against - angle shooters amd players who insist i muck or show.

Haha that one really made me laugh. What a sneaky ankle shooter the dude is.
He wants to see your hand, and also have a chance to win, + not showing his hand in case he loses.
What a douche.
He had "last action" at the showdown. He has to either show both cards to potentially win the hand, or muck if he believes he got caught. You don't need to do anything.

There was an amazing old video once on YouTube: Tobias Reinkemeier vs Roland De Wolf, where Tobias calls Roland on the river with air (Q high), because he knows that Roland likes to muck when being on a bluff himself even when first to act.
After a lot of back and forth Roland just shows one card a king (which would have won)!

Tobias stays cool, knowing his Q high is not good and while acting annoyed he says something like: "Come on dude you have to show both, what is this?"
Then another back and forth, but Roland doesn't want to show but also not folding. ^^

Then Roland turns the King upside down again, not showing both cards, holding the cards in his hands indicating to muck them, by pushing them forward by holding them and touches the muck with them, but not releasing.

That second Tobias slams his Q high onto the table, knowing he won, because the other hand touched the muck. (It was a tournament, Tobias had to show the winning hand)

Now the dealer who is not clever turns De Wolfs hand upside down showing the hand, and a big discussion starts.

Floorman is called.

In the end Tobias rightfully won. The cards touched the muck and it is not the dealers job to play the hand for de Wolfe.

That was very advanced live poker stuff by Tobias Reinkemeier.

De Wolfe acted like the most innocent human on earth later in the interview, and said he didn't really know if that decision was right, and he has to think about it.
😃 knowing exactly.

Touching the muck is no longer something that automatically kills hands in most rooms, as long as the hand remains identifiable. Do not follow that example in a casino today unless you are very very sure about your room rules, and are willing to risk a random floor decision on it too.

(Having said that, given that guys behavior leading up to it, I might be tempted to kill his hand anyway as a floor.)

Really, just show your cards at showdown without waiting for whoever is supposed show first. You keep the game friendly towards you, the dealer and floor thank you and you make the other person look like an ass. Unless you're writing down all the hands, the information is a little value to you. If you worried about a slow roller, the worst thing you can do to them is ignore. Start talking to your neighbor about the game going on or last night.

Showing your hand when you don't have to isn't about writing down all the hands. It is about other players who are good getting info about your range. When I play in mid to high cost tournaments it is not something I will ever do (show my hand when I don't have to). Why do you think the player who bet on the river (or who is first to act if it all checked down) isn't showing their hand when they know it is a loser? It is because they don't want the other people at the table to have info about their betting ranges.

When a player doesn't want to show their hand but isn't mucking it in a game where the winner doesn't have to show their hand when everyone else has mucked at showdown, they are the player that is making the game unfriendly. Most of the time they want to see your hand without having to show theirs.

There are three potential reasons they are doing this. The first is they want to see your hand without having to show their hand (this is mostly when the player who last bet on the river doesn't want to show their hand). The second is they aren't sure if they are going to win or not but they would rather not show their hand and they want to be able to still win after you show your hand (this happens occasionally when the river is checked through). And the third is that they know they are going to win and they want to see your hand or basically are trying to tilt you (this happens very rarely).

Also, talking about the Dealer and the Floor thanking you is ridiculous. They have a job to do and in the case where the player who last bet or is first to act is not showing their hand then the Dealer isn't doing their job if they don't tell the player who is stalling what to do. When I call the Floor over in these spots (and it has happened less than a handful of times since the rules changed) the Floors are never mad at me. They get upset with the player who isn't following the rules.

Also, when you turn your hand over when you don't have to you are not making the Villain look like an ass. You are basically getting run over by him and the other players at the table are typically happy they get to see your cards. They aren't mad at the Villain. They will get mad at the Villain if he congtinues to stall though. But in all the times that this has come up I have never been criticized by any other player at the table or by the dealer.

You are absolutely correct in that the other player has to show (or muck) first. By waiting for him you will never be wrong.

That said, there is the etiquette part of the equation. If someone says "Your good.", you can be polite and turn over your hand saving them the embarrassment of having to show their bluff. This option comes with tons of caveats. Tons. If it is in the late stages of a big tournament? I wait and make them show/muck. If it is in a friendly cash game, I show immediately wanting to keep the friendly vibe. There is a spectrum with lots of grey. If my opponent has been an ******* in the past, I will sit and wait forever for him to show/muck. I don't care how long it takes. In general though, I am quick to turn over my hand if I think I am good, especially if my opponent indicates I am good.

In general it is better to keep people friendly and happy than to wait for them to show since they have to technically show first.

It depends.

As for the getting/giving information aspect, this is greatly overrated. If you are a decent player, you have already narrowed their range down pretty good anyway. Considering there should always be a spazz/random factor when calculating ranges, seeing one particular hand shouldn't generally make that much of a difference.

That said, even though it almost always doesn't matter, there are really rare occasions when it does. There are really rare occasions where I think I have a particular read or tell on a player and I want to confirm it by seeing their hand. Or there are are times where I think another player is bluffing and I have called them ridiculously light.

But again, unless you have a real reason to be strict, it is generally better to show your hand first when your opponent says you are good

@JimL

Mr Rick isn't really concerned about seeing villain's hand.
He is more concerned about not showing his if he doesn't have to.

This 100%, if he won the hand - why would I want the table to see how I played my hand?

If you are better than the rest of the table shouldn't you use that information better than they do?

He already knows what his own cards are, showing doesn't give him any information.

I think he meant that in an exchange of similar courtesy, the better player would make better use of seeing his opponent's cards than vice versa.

I don't see how that follows from the examples given here. If he shows his hand and wins, he's not going to see the other guy's hand, and IMO it's very unlikely to be reciprocated in another hand.

There are two things at play here.

The first is that when a player is supposed to show their cards first and they don't then I don't have to show my cards if they decide to muck. I win the pot (whether it's a tournament or a cash game where the winning hand doesn't need to be shown). There is no way I am going to show my hand to the whole table for literally no reason.

The second is that if the player wants to see my cards he will have to show his hand. This will give me info about his range for future reference. I have no problem showing my winning hand immediately after the other player shows his hand. Here though I generally do want to see his specific hand which may help me understand just how wide his range is (like would he do that with unsuited connectors, suited gappers, very low PP's, etc.) which is extremely important if he has limped first in, raised or 3-bet preflop or called a raise preflop. Similarly it can be very important to see if his bluffing range on the flop, turn, and/or river include complete air or are restricted to semi-bluffs (which will help me know whether he underbluffs or overbluffs or is a GTO balanced bluffer).

In a cash game where the winner has to show his hand regardless of what the other player does, I will always show my hand when the other player indicates he has missed or describes his hand, like saying "Ace high". But again this is a situation where the winning hand must be shown.

Well, here is the third thing. In a WSOP Main event a few years ago I called a preflop raise OTB with 53s. The flop gave me a flush draw so I called the cbet. The turn was a miss and I called a decent sized bet. The river was again a miss and the guy checked. I decided not to bluff because I was blocking A5s/A3s and I thought he probably had a medium PP which was not top pair and I thought I would be called because he wanted a missed draw to bluff. After I checked he hesitated and then said "I know you have a pair" which was not true. So I shrugged a little like he was right and he mucked his hand. And I mucked my hand and collected over 10,000 chips. So why I am saying this is that it is important for people to know that there are no circumstances where I will show my hand at showdown unless I have to. So they can't realize that I don't have a decently strong hand because I am hesitating to show it, because the last time this happened I did show my hand thinking I had the winning hand.

Mr Rick, why do you think winner must always show if only other player mucks? From what little I know about tournaments, cash games have much less required to show rules than tournaments.

Chip dumping much less an issue in match stack cash games. If you are sole player with a live hand, you win (almost always).

Mr. Rick plays at Foxwoods, which is such a glaring outlier that we don't even have to ask whether he plays at Foxwoods.

I don't think the winner has to show if the only other player mucks if it is not a rule in the casino they are playing at. In cash games the rules are sometimes that the player has to show. This was true at Foxwoods after they removed the IWTSTH rule so players couldn't ask to see losing hands at showdown.

The new TDA rules in tournaments (which are used by basically every casino in the US) don't require the winner to show their cards if there are no other players left in the hand. So if a player bets and I call, if they muck their hand I don't have to show and I don't. Ever. Similarly if we are on the river and it checks through and I am in position, if everyone before me mucks their hand I don't have to show.

Very funny. But not entirely untrue...

Before Covid I used to play regularly at Foxwoods which is a 2 hour drive from my home. I also played regularly at the Borgota also over 2 hour drive.

When I stopped playing 20/40 LHE and started mostly playing in tournaments I played a lot of tournaments at Foxwoods (including their Megastacks), I played the season series 4 times at the Borgota and I played the Big Stax in Parx Casino in Bensalem PA (just under 2 hours away) probably 4 or more times a year. Until Mohegan Sun made their horrible mistake in a tourney in 2016 I also played in their summer tournament series there (after their poker room reopened). About 13 years ago I started playing in the Senior and Super Senior WSOP events and generally a lot of other senior tournaments in Las Vegas going on at roughly the same time (at the Venetian, Orleans, Planet Hollywood, Aria, Wynne, Golden Nugget, Binions, etc.)

Now I play in Las Vegas during the WSOP and WSOP circuit. Since Covid hit Foxwoods basically has only one tournament a week that I would play in which is on Sunday ($400 NL). I do play again at Mohegan Sun on Saturday at their $350 NL (because they upgraded the way they manage tournaments). But I won't travel the 2 hours anymore unless one of them also has a $600 Friday Day 1 tournament or a Monday $400 tournament (like on holidays). Fortunately Parx has restarted their Big Stax (which I played at recently)

Also in 2023 I played the entire year in Prague at Rebuy Stars Casino Luka which is now closed. They had weekly tournaments there from $90 to $450 with the best fields I have ever played in. It was like a poker graduate school for me on a scholarship (because the cost of tournaments was so much cheaper than in the US).

I also play on the west coast in CA when we visit my wife's mom or a close friend. I've played a lot at Bay 101, Lucky Chances, Commerce and now the Bike. In the last 12 years just tournaments.

Exactly! I don't mind showing my hand if I got to see his. I think I will make better use of that information than he would of my pocket AA. But, I want the opportunity to get that info if I'm going to show the table how I played my hand.

And yes I can see how some players will say to keep a whale or a fish happy, I should just keep the table going and show my cards and move on. I feel the opposite. I think it made that player a little irritated - which I think would cause him to make even more loose calls than normal against me. I'm not trying to angle shoot the man. But if me making sure I'm not giving away free info and protecting myself from being angled, causes him to play worse, so be it...