PAHWM - insane pre-flop action in bonkers 1/2 home game
1/2 with occasional straddling of 5/10/20/40. It'll be 1/2 for a few orbits, then 1/2/5, then 1/2/5/10, then 1/2/5/10/20/40, then it'll go back to 1/2 for no reason.
We're also doing $10 double-board PLO bomb pots every orbit (there's a bomb pot button going around in opposite direction to the dealer button - the bomb pots are played when that button and dealer button land on the same person).
Ten-handed. Think the rake is up to $5 per pot, but it's only my second time in the game and I was too embarrassed to ask. Buy-ins range from $400-$500 to $1000.
Table dynamics - seats 1, 2, and 3 are college kids, too young to get into a casino, but seem solid, all sitting on $400-$450.
Seats 4 and 5 are dudes in their late 50's / early 60's. Seat 5 over-defends his BB too wide, and hasn't put in a 3B since the Nixon administration. Seat 5 has about $500.
Seat 4 over-defends both the SB and BB, but has some 3B's, and is bordering on tilted-maniac after running bad early on, including getting stacked by me in a 4B pot when I sucked out to make top boat on the river with a 2-outer (my AA vs his 76s on 6622-A).
Seat 4 has re-bought and run his stack up to around $800, and seems to have it out for me, refusing to fold to any of my raises, 3B's, or 4B's.
Seat 6 played so few hands I don't even remember him. Seat 7 is an Asian male in his 20's, who seems sort of TAG-fish. He's got around $600. Seat 8 is apparently a PLO player who's been playing pretty tight, but for some reason has decided not to play any of the PLO bomb pots, starting around $850-$900.
Hero is in seat 9, and ran insanely well early on, now sitting on over $2000. Seat 10 has been playing pretty TAG, seems to be the most solid player at the table, with about $1000.
Seat 4 in seat 5 has recently been raising insanely large. A recent hand went Seat 4 opens for $50 into a $3 pot from UTG, action folds to solid TAG in seat 10 who 3B's to $200, college kid in seat 1 cold 4B's all in for $400 with JJ, Seat4 insta-mucks. Seat 10 snaps with AA, holds and scoops.
It's absolute carnage.
OTTH:
Hero straddles $5 UTG. UTG1 straddles $10. Three college kids limp for $10. Seat 4 raises to $40 (it might have been $50 or $60, but my first thought was it seemed way too small for him, the game, and the situation, with $48 of dead money already in the pot. I figured he was either FOS or he's got a monster and he's hoping to induce someone to 3B).
Two or three callers, including the PLO guy in the BB to my direct right.
Hero looks down at AQo.
Hero? Fold? Call? Raise?
I was thinking if we raise, it's going to have to be like $300. There's already $200 or more in the pot, and we have to get through 7 or 8 opponents, including Seat 4, who doesn't appear to have a fold button at this point. If we raise, best case, we're playing a $700-$800 pot HU but OOP against a lunatic. Worst case, we're playing a $1200-$1500 pot OOP and multi-way.
I've had worse. Raise it up.
I was thinking if we raise, it's going to have to be like $300. There's already $200 or more in the pot, and we have to get through 7 or 8 opponents, including Dave, who doesn't appear to have a fold button at this point. If we raise, best case, we're playing a $700-$800 pot HU but OOP against a lunatic. Worst case, we're playing a $1200-$1500 pot OOP and multi-way.
Even if you raise to 300, and get called by 1 or more players the pot gets super bloated, you'll have less than a pot size bet left. Easy ship on 99% of boards.
They aren't super deep, you can treat this like a shortstack 5/10 game. Most of them have less than 100bb, only Seat 4 has 80bb. If you 3bet to 300+, you literally just ship any flop, you're pot commited even if they 4bet jam on you.
If you want to play poker, I think 3betting 220-250 is good enough, the 500 stacks are forced to either fold/ship. Only the 800+ stacks will think about calling. We can treat this like an online 4bet pot(kinda) in terms of sizing/stacks and such. Do they really click call facing such large preflop raise besides the Dave guy???
Jamming isn't that bad as well I think, since there's already 200 dead money, at most you're risking 1000.
Of course 3betting is high variance route.
Or just wait for better situations with AK+/QQ+.
Calling and playing AQ in a mulitway pot isn't that great. When you don't hit, you lose, when you hit tp, you might also lose to sets/st8s/flushes/twopairs+/bluffs.
Folding is a bit nitty. But no decision what so ever. You lose the least amount of money. Of course you also don't win any.
At the end of the day, it's all about how much risk you're willing to take.
In game, my thinking was that if I raised to $300, someone could jam, and I'd probably have to call it off, hating the situation, figuring AQo would likely be behind their jamming range.
Also, by this time I was starting to figure out that the maniac is a "backwards" player who bets and raises when we'd all check or call, and checks and calls when we'd all bet or raise. In that earlier 4B pot, he checked back after flopping trips, then raised all in for 2X pot and 6x my bet after boating up on the turn. The fact that he insta-folded the hand he'd opened to $50 had me thinking that he was somewhat weak that hand, and this smallish open could be an indication of a stronger hand.
It also felt like sometime within the past few orbits the whole table got tired of my $hlt, so even if the maniac wasn't sand-bagging, someone else might be, just waiting for me to put in a raise.
So I just flat called.
Next to act in the $10 straddle folds. First two limpers call. Then the third limper back-raises, but he only makes it $100 more ($100 on top), which also seemed oddly small to me, given the pot size when action got to him (over $300, possibly $400).
The maniac insta-folds (so much for thinking he was strong). Action folds back to the PLO guy on my direct right, who now double-flats, which seemed really weird.
Action back on hero now. What to do?
I've lost track of the exact pot size, but it's now somewhere around $450, give or take $50.
Remaining stack sizes:
College kid in seat 1 (1st limp-caller) - about $350-$400.
College kid in seat 2 (limp-caller) - about $400.
College kid in seat 3 (limp-back-raiser) - about $300-ish after his back-raise.
PLO guy in seat 8 ($2 BB, double-flatter) - about $800.
Hero in seat 9, $5 UTG straddle - covers all.
In game, my thinking was that if I raised to $300, someone could jam, and I'd probably have to call it off, hating the situation, figuring AQo would likely be behind their jamming range.Also, by this time I was starting to figure out that the maniac is a "backwards" player who bets and raises when we'd all check or call, and checks and calls when we'd all bet or raise. In that
I think jam, fold, call are all viable options. Fold because you think you're dominated. Jamming only if you're sure the back raise is light which I highly doubt but too much dead money. Call because you think you are getting pot odds.
But probably fold>jam>call.
His range is probably premiums limping to trap the maniac.
Our equity vs AK+/QQ+ is only 24.4%. It goes up to 30.6% if you add in JJ and TT.
I think jam, fold, call are all viable options. Fold because you think you're dominated. Jamming only if you're sure the back raise is light which I highly doubt but too much dead money. Call because you think you are getting pot odds.But probably fold>jam>call.His range is probably premiums limping to trap the maniac.Our equity vs AK+/QQ+ is only 24.4%. It goes up to 30.6%
Interesting take.
My thinking was that a college kid isn't going to over-limp behind two limpers with a premium hand, looking to set a trap, then, when the maniac raises, and gets 6-7 callers, and action gets back to him, and the pot is $300-$400, and he's only started the hand with $450-ish, he's only going to make it another $100 to go, in a game where $400 stacks are getting pushed across the table 2-3 times per orbit.
Like, what sort of trap is that? Literally no hand that calls the initial $40-$60 raise is now going to fold for another $100 when the pot odds are over 4:1. I was thinking that if he actually had a real hand, he would have just jammed, like any OMC would do, since he's pulling a stereotypical OMC move here. That's what I'd have done in his spot, if I was sand-bagging a big PP.
More likely, in my view, he suspected (as I did) that the maniac's small raise size likely indicated a weak hand, and everyone who flat called the raise capped their range by not 3B'ing, and this might be a good spot for him to pounce on all the dead money in the pot, but he was too chicken-$hlt to jam, so he tosses in another $100 on top, praying everyone folds, because "back-raise is always nutted".
It's certainly possible he was trapping, but if he was, he's playing a dangerous game with this 3B size, compared to the pot size and the number of opponents it has to get through (it was 7 or 8 people when he 3B). If I was in his spot, I'd consider back-raising to take down all the dead money, but I'd have potted it, at least, which in his case would have been an all-in jam.
A 3B-jam for $450 looks way more credible than this almost min-click.
What a game!
I was going to say, "Watch out for the college kids," who probably could teach Sub etc about SolverLife, but they don't sound very skilled from your account. I guess the softer college kid could have AA, and is feeling confident.
My first thought was fold to the V who has it out for you, plus is betting like this, and I haven't done the math, but I feel like jamming. So I probably should fold.
The sizing is certainly idiosyncratic. Maybe it's tailored to stack sizes? But I am leaning to these Vs just don't know what theyre doing. The minclick, IME comes from people who want to do all of: trap, but have little idea of their stack vs pot, and want to get cute with their sizing. Other people have different V pools that act differently.
I agree with you; I'd be shoving long before if I was college kid. I love the one's rip with JJ btw.
What a game!I was going to say, "Watch out for the college kids," who probably could teach Sub etc about SolverLife, but they don't sound very skilled from your account. I guess the softer college kid could have AA, and is feeling confident.My first thought was fold to the V who has it out for you, plus is betting like this, and I haven't done the math, but I feel like jamming
It's an amazing game. So much that I asked the host if his couch pulls out to a bed, because I never wanted to leave.
I don't mind the shove with JJ, other than he was shoving over a $200 3B from the second biggest stack at the table, who'd been pretty quiet. The main point was the lunatic who opened for $50 when the pot had $3 in it, leading to the carnage of that kid getting stacked. If the raise was $10, and action flowed from there, he might not have gone broke. Seat 4 is currently a variance generation machine.
But back to the current hand...
My thinking at this point is that the two limp-callers in EP and the guy on my right who double-flatted have all severely capped their ranges, and the kid who back-raised seemed smart enough and aggro enough to just be making a move to take down a big pot with a bunch of dead money in it. Even though a back-raise 4B from me at this point would seem completely FOS, I figured AQ could actually be the best hand here, and I could raise for value.
So that's what I did. I made it $500 to go.
Seat 1 thinks a few seconds and jams all in for less. Seat 2 folds. Seat 3 re-jams. BB in seat 8 tanks about ten seconds before flat calling the $500, only leaving himself about $350-$400 behind.
As the dealer is figuring out the main pot and the two side pots, I'm trying to figure out how much BB has left, and wondering what the hell I just got myself into.
FLOP (about $2000 in the combined pots, but only about $150-$200 in the side pot between me and BB) - AsAd6s
We do not have the Qs in our hand.
BB checks.
Hero?
Check back and let V get a free card? Bet small? Jam for his remaining $350-$400?
I would def. Raise
I consider an amount thats big but leaves the possibility to re-raise if one of the shorter stacks moves in , but also leaves room to fold if everyone goes ballistic..
Playing in similar games
I play AQ like AK here (despite i would never fold AK pre here, ever!)
So much dead money already in ill commit
200BB any day
Jam 100%
The main pot will take care of itself, so the question becomes: how do you get the remaining Villain's money?
You're obviously never folding trips, so I say check to give him rope.
The main pot will take care of itself, so the question becomes: how do you get the remaining Villain's money?
You're obviously never folding trips, so I say check to give him rope.
Given that he triple-flatted (he flat called the original raise, flat called the 3B, and flat called my 4B), rather than jamming pre, what sort of range are you giving him? I was giving him a lot of middling pairs, like 55-TT, and suited Broadway combos.
How much of that range is going to stab on a brick turn if we check back? With the combined pot being $2000, do we even want to risk him sucking out by checking back and giving him a free card?
My thinking was that he'd be pretty inelastic if we bet here. Even if we bet small, like $100 or $200, laying him 10 or even 20 to 1, he'd probably still fold his PP's and non-spade Broadway combos. I figured he'd only continue with his draws to the nut flush, just whatever KXss he has that call pre, but those hands would likely continue if we jammed.
So the options seemed to be just check back to give him a free card, or jam.
I jammed. He said something like, "it's so obvious" and folds.
In game, I was somewhat regretting that I didn't just jam pre, because he might have called off the rest. But in hindsight, I'm not sure. He might have folded, and a jam would have cost me the $500 he would have called.
It's just really weird that he flat called a $500 bet with only $350-$400 remaining. I'd have thought he'd just stick the rest in once he's committed over half his stack.
Anyway, I just turn over my hand. Seat 3 showed JJ. So much for my read that he was FOS with his back-raise.
Seat 1 never showed, and seat 8 never said what he had. The runout was clean, and I scooped.
I would def. Raise
I consider an amount thats big but leaves the possibility to re-raise if one of the shorter stacks moves in , but also leaves room to fold if everyone goes ballistic..
Playing in similar games
I play AQ like AK here (despite i would never fold AK pre here, ever!)
So much dead money already in ill commit
200BB any day
I'm assuming you're talking about when action first gets to me, after the initial small raise.
The problem I saw with raising then is that the other stack sizes at the table ranged from $400-$450 to $800-$1000. If I raised to $150-$200 and one of the short stacks jammed, I'd be forced to call. If I made it $300 and any of the big stacks jammed, I'd be forced to call.
Basically, there was no room to fold if I 3B and got 4B. I might have to commit as much as 500bb.
Potentially, AQo might be ahead of the short stacks' jamming ranges. But probably not ahead of the big stacks', other than the maniac with $800.
Like, if I make it $300, and the TAG on my left jams for $1k, or the PLO guy on my right jams for $850-$900, it's pretty gross, but I have to call, when there's so much dead money in the pot. If the maniac jams for $800, it's not quite as bad, but still, I don't love playing AQo as a call of another player's jam for 400bb.
I figured I could flat call the small raise, and see what the four players left to act do. If the TAG 3B's to $300, or if any of the limpers jam for more than that, I have a pretty easy fold. Otherwise, we're just going to a flop super multi-way, with a decent hand that's under-repped and might flop well enough to mitigate our positional disadvantage.
Preflop raise to 300. When it comes back AP: with so much dead money in the pot that you lost track of it, just jam. I think most people agree there are too many variables in this hand history to deduce the right play. My takeaway: you're only really afraid of AK here, and you have one blocker. In a bonkers game, a jam preflop folds out some pairs and also gets called sometimes by AJ and AT.
Is this a home game in a club or a home?
It's in a home.
Don't see how raising to $500 is better than shoving, but here we are on the flop.
Seems pretty simple, we probably want to bet something but it should be pretty small relative to the pot size. So about $50 to $100?
The pot size and remaining stacks are a bit complicated ... so I can understand shrug and shove, but I'd assume people are a lot more likely to fold TT to that than a small bet.
Such a weird spot with a small SPR, because in a normal dry side pot I'd pretty much range check this kind of flop HU but as it is...
Checking seems meh but maybe if you can check multiple times he'll stab river?
Preflop raise to 300. When it comes back AP: with so much dead money in the pot that you lost track of it, just jam. I think most people agree there are too many variables in this hand history to deduce the right play. My takeaway: you're only really afraid of AK here, and you have one blocker. In a bonkers game, a jam preflop folds out some pairs and also gets called sometim
Don't see how raising to $500 is better than shoving, but here we are on the flop.Seems pretty simple, we probably want to bet something but it should be pretty small relative to the pot size. So about $50 to $100?The pot size and remaining stacks are a bit complicated ... so I can understand shrug and shove, but I'd assume people are a lot more likely to fold TT to that than a
My thinking in game was that BB might not call off the rest of his atack when he just flat called twice, but clearly he wanted to see a flop, so he might call a raise to $500 but might find a fold if I jammed.
It's a weird spot, for sure, and I can certainly see the value in just jamming. He's probably only continuing on the flop if he makes a big hand, so raising to $500 pre let's him see the flop.
It either made me an extra $500 or cost me $350-$400 when he folds after missing.
I love your posts, Doc. This hand history seems unsolvable but clearly jam or fold. Honestly, unless you are trying to earn a living playing poker, why would you want to call? It doesn’t get any better than this. Just get it all in and watch them fold and over call.
I love your posts, Doc. This hand history seems unsolvable but clearly jam or fold. Honestly, unless you are trying to earn a living playing poker, why would you want to call? It doesn’t get any better than this. Just get it all in and watch them fold and over call.
Don't get me wrong. I thought about this hand a lot since it was played, just over a week ago. It was hard to beat myself up too much for not jamming pre, given the size of the pot that I won. Mostly I was just trying to figure out what the optimal play was when action was first on me pre, and then when BB checks the flop.
But it's worth looking at the decision point when action was on me the second time pre. My thinking at the time was that BB couldn't have that strong a hand, and would probably fold to my $500 raise, making it a moot point whether to raise to $500 or jam all in, since $500 was enough to put the other three all in.
I mean, it's not like I'm going to raise to $500 and fold if he jams for another $350-$400, obviously. It just wasn't in my head, "how do I get BB to stick his whole stack in?" I was more thinking, "Is my hand best here? Probably. Ok, eff it, raise for value, and make these punks play for their whole stack" (punks being the college kids).
The BB calling off a $500 raise and only leaving himself $350-$400 behind really isn't a thing, so it never crossed my mind as a possibility. If it had, I probably would have jammed. As it was, I figured I'd be taking the pot down right then and there more often than not. Imagine my surprise when two of the college kids jammed and the BB called off the $500.
I would def. RaiseI consider an amount thats big but leaves the possibility to re-raise if one of the shorter stacks moves in, but also leaves room to fold if everyone goes ballistic..Playing in similar gamesI play AQ like AK here (despite i would never fold AK pre here, ever!)So much dead money already in ill commit 200BB any day
I'm assuming you're talking about
Yes was talking about pre Action.
I dont like calling AQo oop multiway (i flat AQs here more often)
I def. never fold
Ill raise to 200 and will call any shoves of the smaller 400-500 stacks and fold if a bigstack shoves unless i have a read.
Nevermind.
See Docs re-edited hand one year later
One of the most ridiculous multi-way pots I've ever played, and tied for the biggest pot I've won at low stakes.
Don't think I'd joined the forum yet when I played the other one....
Semi-drunk UTG1 reg opens to $15 off $350. Two regs call off $500. Whale in CO 3B's to $45 off $700. BTN reg cold calls off $450. Hero in SB cold calls off $900 with JcTs. BB folds. UTG1 and the other two all call, so we're 6 ways to the flop in a 3B pot with $270 in the middle.
Flop was (chef's kiss) AcKsQc.
Hero loses his mind and donks $200. UTG1 jams for $305, and hero instantly regrets not donking for $150, since UTG1's jam isn't enough to re-open the action.
Fold, fold. CO flat calls, leaving $350 back. BTN jams $405, re-opening the action, and I could have kissed him on the lips. Hero re-jams for CO's remaining $350. CO snaps. Dealer is figuring out all the main pot / side pot BS, when cards start getting rolled over.
UTG1 has K8cc, middle pair + NFD.
CO has AKo, top 2P.
BTN has AJo, TP + GSSD.
Hero has 48.7% equity and has to dodge eight clubs, the case ace, the case king, three 10's (for a chop), runner-runner J's, and runner-runner 8's.
Turn and river are bricks, and we scoop $2300 in a 1/3 game.
