Getting Looked Up Light When I Don’t C-Bet Flop — Need Advice on Adjustments
Looking for some help on adjusting my flop/turn strategy vs loose-passive players who seem to station me super light when I don’t c-bet flop and then try to represent strength later.
Here’s a recent hand from a live 1/2/5 NLH game with $1.5k effective stacks:
• I open Q♦9♦ from MP
• A loose player flats on the button, whale in BB calls
• Flop: A♠ J♥ 8♥ — it checks around
• Turn: 4♣ — checks to me again, I bet ½ pot, BTN calls
• River: 2♥ — I bet ½ pot again, he tanks then calls with JTo
I was trying to rep an ace or a heart draw that got there, but it seems like he never gave me credit because I didn’t c-bet the flop. This isn’t the first time — I’ve noticed that when I check flop as PFR, these types of players start calling me down very light, even with 2nd or 3rd pair.
Questions:
• Is checking flop here a mistake vs these types of opponents?
• Should I just be c-betting more often, even small, to maintain fold equity and initiative?
• How do you approach delayed turn barrels in spots like this when villain is sticky?
Appreciate any thoughts on how to better play against these kinds of call-happy live players.
13 Replies
Looking for some help on adjusting my flop/turn strategy vs loose-passive players who seem to station me super light when I don’t c-bet flop and then try to represent strength later.Here’s a recent hand from a live 1/2/5 NLH game with $1.5k effective stacks: • I open Q♦9♦ from MP • A loose player flats on the button, whale in BB calls • Flop: A♠ J♥ 8♥ — it checks around • Turn: 4♣ —
Wild idea, but perhaps not trying to bluff calling stations might be an approach?
When you are bluffing you need to tell a story that your opponent will believe. So when you check this flop you are telling these opponents that you do not have an ace or better. And they believe that story.
So you either need to stick with this story (and just give up without trying to take the pot away) or change the story, by checking hands on the flop that you can then get value with later.
For example, let’s say you have A9s here instead of Q9s. Are you always betting this flop? If so, what do these same opponents do when this happens?
Don't bet the turn. Just check, and when he stabs at it, put in a healthy check-raise.
Most V's won't be able to resist betting for thin value or as a bluff when we check to them twice. If we check twice, they bet, and we check-raise, then barrel river, they'll over-fold. If we check flop and then start a bluff with a delayed c-bet on the turn, we're going to get looked up light a lot.
To discuss CMV's point, think about what the General Issue Poker Player (GI PP) is going to do in this situation. In the eyes of the villain, that's all you are. GI PP is going to bet on the flop with an Ace because he doesn't want to give a free card to a draw. So as soon as you check, you don't have an ace. Now if GI PP has a FD, he's not betting the turn because he doesn't have a made hand. So you don't have an ace and you don't have a FD. 2nd pair is a close, but ok bluff catcher getting 3:1 on the river.
David Sklansky in ancient days wrote to never bluff unless you have a reasonable chance to catch a card that can make you a winning hand. You had 3 outs with a T to make a clean hand. That's not enough.
To discuss CMV's point, think about what the General Issue Poker Player (GI PP) is going to do in this situation. In the eyes of the villain, that's all you are. GI PP is going to bet on the flop with an Ace because he doesn't want to give a free card to a draw. So as soon as you check, you don't have an ace. Now if GI PP has a FD, he's not betting the turn because he doesn
Andrew Seidman said it nicely in Easy Game. We calculate our aggression by evaluating our Pot Equity and our Fold Equity.
If you're going to make a half-pot bet like that, then do it on the flop. It would demonstrate strength that you've hit it or that you had it from the beginning. That's how you would start the "story." You also might even take down the hand at that point. To give a free card after the flop and bet on a blank...that's a tough sell. If you had bet after the flop, then this is where you would either tell the next part of the story by double-barreling OR just check it and give up. This is where knowing the player profiles and your own can be key. Will the player stay with 2nd pair after you fire a full-pot turn bet? Possibly, but doubtful.
I was trying to rep an ace or a heart draw that got there, but it seems like he never gave me credit because I didn’t c-bet the flop.
That points to a delayed c-bet as an exploit for value betting if you are getting looked up light when you do.
In the hand posted the open from MP is a bit loose but ok. You could c-bet sometimes tho I would imagine this is a spot you can mix c-bet and check bc betting every time has to be lighting money on fire.
Also consider checking flop when you do have an A from time to time.
Don't bet the turn. Just check, and when he stabs at it, put in a healthy check-raise.Most V's won't be able to resist betting for thin value or as a bluff when we check to them twice. If we check twice, they bet, and we check-raise, then barrel river, they'll over-fold. If we check flop and then start a bluff with a delayed c-bet on the turn, we're going to get looked up light
But how can we be sure they don’t have a real hand when they bet turn? More so if they call the checkraise.
Check value OTF, bet bluffs.
But how can we be sure they don’t have a real hand when they bet turn? More so if they call the checkraise.
To answer this more fully, tell me what strong hands V has when he checks back the flop, and then bets turn when we check again on this board:
• Flop: A♠ J♥ 8♥ — it checks around
• Turn: 4♣ — checks to me again, I bet ½ pot, BTN calls
Is he ever checking back top pair or better on this flop? Probably not. So what "real hand" does he have when he stabs turn? 44? That's three combos, compared to the absurdly large number of air-ball bluffs and weak value he'll have when he stabs at it.
Just check raise. Especially when he bets small. If he bets $30-50 into $100, and we raise to $200, he's going to over-fold, meaning he literally folds more often than he should according to theory. This is a massively +EV play.
If he pots it on the turn, go ahead and fold.
On the other hand, when we check flop, and then bet 1/2 pot on turn, it looks weak AF, and we're going to get looked up VERY light. Because what "real hands" do we have that check this flop after raising pre?
If you want to sell the idea you have a real hand, you need to check raise, or over-bet from up front. And you better have some strong hands in your flop check range if you're going to do that.
When we're bluffing, the check raise is going to generate more fold equity, so go for the check raise, which also has the added benefit of not owning ourselves when he actually has 44 or was slow playing a monster on the flop.
