1/2: Betting A high board as PFR then not knowing what to do on turn
1/2, $500 stacks, new table, 8-handed
Hero opens $15 T9dd UTG, 3 calls (UTG1, BTN, SB)
Flop ($60): AcQc7s
Hero cbets $25 since A high hits our range the most, only BTN calls
Guessing he has Ax a ton so feel like giving up
Turn ($110): 4c
Hero checks, V checks his cards and checks back
Guessing he has Ax with a club a lot but a river bet may not look credible because we checked turn
River ($110): 2h
Hero checks, V checks behind
V wins with Ad6c
Should I have double barreled turn to continue repping a strong Ax or better? As played, should I have delay barreled river?
17 Replies
Cbetting oop 4 ways with air seems bad.
I get this hits your range, but it's 1/2 and one of them probably has an ace.
As for turn and river, you're not somehow entitled to win the pot, so checking is fine.
Looks fine, I usually wouldn't c bet into 3 without even having a backdoor flush draw or gutshot etc but I don't think it's bad either.
I like giving up, your gonna get called down a lot unless you triple barrel.
At 1/2, with 3 opponents, I'd give up on that board. Just x-fold. (Probably not opening T9s UTG either, though you are deep.) Getting a 1/2 opponent to fold a pair of Aces is tough, and you have three of them to get through. Surprised two folded to a <1/2 cbet.
But if I did bet, it'd be bigger, 2/3. Then a bigger still Turn bet. See how much they like their ace. And keep betting River. Much, much higher variance, though probably would have worked in this one instance.
Or we can just x-fold flop and move onto the next hand. Let 'em think you had Jacks.
Not betting river after checking the turn. You will get looked up by Ax and Qx all day long.
I think c/f flop 4 ways and fold preflop are the way to go. Tho if the game is tight for a while and "respecting your raises" the aggression can help eventually loosen them up. $15 open is a lot, have to consider that an advertising expense.
I play pretty tight, but I open 9Ts under the gun.
4 ways to the flop, I am giving up after missing this board, I check-fold.
As played, I would check the turn when the club comes in.
It's hard to bet him off an ace on the river, so I would also just check here. If you think it is unlikely he would check behind with a flush, I suppose you could bet big on the river to represent a big ace, AQ, or a flush.
But when it goes 4 handed to the flop and I am in early position, I generally only expect to win the pot if I make the best hand, and will play defensively.
Yeah, I usually open T9s UTG also. This doesn't seem like a good flop to bluff cbet at. There is another broadway card and a 2-flush, so it is a fairly wet board. Probably not good to cbet bluff much multiway.
No, it's pretty bad.
I'm also confused about the OP's very chunky raise UTG with a hand ostensibly at the bottom of his raising range.
Don't totally mind the same sizing with everything, particularly this is not a hand like a small pp that you particularly want to play multiway. Does create some deception, that you don't always have a good pp or good high cards raising large UTG. OK to fold this UTG or raise smaller. Just with this flop and 3 callers, let it go, and let go of your $15.
1/2, $500 stacks, new table, 8-handed Hero opens $15 T9dd UTG, 3 calls (UTG1, BTN, SB)Flop ($60): AcQc7sHero cbets $25 since A high hits our range the most, only BTN callsGuessing he has Ax a ton so feel like giving upTurn ($110): 4cHero checks, V checks his cards and checks backGuessing he has Ax with a club a lot but a river bet may not look credible because we checked turn R
Grunch:
PRE - $15 open seems huge at 1/2, but you got 3 calls, so maybe it's okay when the game is splashy.
FLOP - I wouldn't c-bet from OOP, especially not against 3 opponents. This seems like a trivial check-fold, with the occasional check-raise bluff with air.
As played, we're pretty handcuffed on turn and river. I'd just save the chips by checking / giving up.
Yeah, I wouldn't open 15 UTG at 1/2, but if people are calling it, I like doing it with this hand. People assume you have a premium hand. If he hit trips or a straight, they will think you have an overpair. You can semibluff with a draw representing a big preflop hand. If you make a flush and their hand and the board block the high flushes, they would believe you have it. You can also bluff on drier high boards with fewer callers.
In 4-way pots, as the caller or raiser, usually better to fold when you completely miss.
I think we want to open this hand utg at tight tables and fold it at splashy tables or if there is a player calling all bets.
Fold pre. If you opened to 2x it could be OK, but it's a gigantic punt to open to 7.5x. I don't think you understand the exploit of opening bigger than GTO pre. You want to open tighter than theory when playing vs loose passive players having position on you, and then even tighter than that when you are opening huge.
Don't cbet, cbetting this hand is also a huge punt. You have far less fold equity than the amount you need, and no equity to improve. That is in theory. In practice, it's even worse, you'll have even less fold equity
Its hard to make significant mistakes on flop or preflop, but you have managed to lose probably multiple big blinds in EV on these two streets alone.
I strongly recommend some solver work or theory based coaching/learning to learn basic fundamentals if you are new to poker
I play tight, esp. at calling station tables, but I'd find it difficult to open fold T9s unless someone is 3betting.
Obviously sizing down is terrible. Yes, GTO open folds it esp. for big sizings ... w/e, I don't care.
Hero opens $15 T9dd UTG, 3 calls (UTG1, BTN, SB)
Flop ($60): AcQc7s
Hero cbets $25 since A high hits our range the most, only BTN calls
Guessing he has Ax a ton so feel like giving up
While people said don't cbet I don't think they addressed your explanation directly...
The big problem you'll run into is that 1-2 players don't understand ranges and will be spew calling any suited A and even A8o, or whatever. Then there's the problem that not every player will 3bet QQ or AK. So it doesn't "hit our range the most" the way it might seem to in GTO land.
Also (others may have said this bit) if you get a call there's basically no good turn cards to continue bluffing with even bad equity (like 8h/8d are your two best cards giving you 3 clean outs and 3 probably good outs).
Related to the above is that I wouldn't cbet $25 with AK here, and I doubt you would either, so you should probably think a bit about that before you continue bluffing all/most A high boards.
With that out of the way, if I really wanted to win this particular hand and was transported to the turn I'd bet around $40 (folding to anything other than a call) watching V to see how reacts and then bet big and maybe just shove river without any reads.
With that out of the way, if I really wanted to win this particular hand and was transported to the turn I'd bet around $40 (folding to anything other than a call) watching V to see how reacts and then bet big and maybe just shove river without any reads.
I agree. I'm open folding T9s, but as played if you are committed to winning the pot, small on the turn and shoving the river seems likely to get a bad Ax to fold. Not the hand to pick for a bluff though.
If you take it down at any stage with this hand, I would show, to show you raise 15 UTG with that.
Flop is a mistake. You are getting called by flush draws as well as gutshots, and all aces. You could also cbet and barrel with a flush draw or gutshot rather than a no equity hand like this.
As played, I would give up. If it is checked back, I would bet most rivers, particularly since he could have a busted draw or be afraid you hit a draw. Maybe bet small on black rivers to fold draws.
I play tight, esp. at calling station tables, but I'd find it difficult to open fold T9s unless someone is 3betting......The big problem you'll run into is that 1-2 players don't understand ranges and will be spew calling any suited A and even A8o, or whatever. Then there's the problem that not every player will 3bet QQ or AK. So it doesn't "hit our range the most" the way it m
Even 8-handed, UTG? Shrug. I see it happily in 6max, so prob a tiny mistake if it is one, pf here. I did advocate polarizing a bit at passive tables---tighten up the value lobe, have nut-making meh hands in the 'bluff' lobe. T9s is neither. 400 bigs deep, knock yourself out.
They call a lot of stuff they should raise, and stuff they should fold. Makes it tough unless we flop well.
Totally agree that if we play this, play it big. And accept the huge variance.
In reply to open raise T9s UTG in 8-10max (for big sizings)...
Even 8-handed, UTG? Shrug. I see it happily in 6max, so prob a tiny mistake if it is one, pf here.
I did shrug defend this as ya'll gaslight me into thinking I was probably opening wide[1], and after thinking a bit more about it my general reasoning is that everyone else doesn't respond to your GTO opens with GTO folds (like AQo,KQo,QJs are either pure folds or AQo 3bets 30-40% depending on the solved preflop chart) so IMO it's better to have some board coverage for 87x type boards than to have A6s/A3s in range and you'll mostly be bluffing them the same amount post anyway.
[1] But I also looked it up on some charts:
GTOw 9max 100bb opens 2bb and does 90% fold T9s UTG, but is also folding a noticeable amount of K9s/QTs/JTs and AJo/KQo and ~40% of 88, even more of 77 and basically folding everything below. Also likes to open a noticeable amount of K8s/K7s/K6s for the GTO chef's kiss.
Smash live cash (no ante, no rake) opens 2.25bb and folds more of AJo/KQo, and all of K8s or worse ... but opens QTs/T9s and 66 pure.
Obviously these are all solver sizes, and in theory we should be tighter for larger opens ... but from what I've seen of GTO large sizes it looks so insane that GG would call it way too tight (like pure fold TT), and board coverage is still a thing (esp. if 2-3 calls are still possible/likely).
Dito. we should be tighter due to rake, but again if you look at how tight you should be due to rake it gets unrealistic very quickly and you'll already be the tightest person at the table ... and I have some hope to one day play in non-raked games.
Saying all that, T9s is not great if we are going to stab this flop for half pot and then lose often.