returning to live LHE after 10 years - a question about bet folding

I don’t have any specific examples but in the mid limit and higher games there still are players who raise the turn with the intention of checking the river unless they improve and there are tricky players who will check raise the turn with a big draw.

My experience in $6/$12 is that when a player raises or check-raises on the turn or river, he has at least two pair 99% of the time and usually a set or better. There will be exceptions, and you should note them for future reference. Besides the two that bruce mentioned, I have seen players raise the turn with top-top (top pair, top kicker). But this is a rarity.

Last night I raised preflop on the button with KK and got five callers. The flop was AK2, all hearts. It checked to me, and I bet. I got two callers. The turn was a black Jack. It checked to me, and I contemplated checking back specifically to avoid getting trapped, but I didn't want to give a free card to anyone with a single heart or a gut-shot to Broadway. So I bet, one player called, and the player on my right methodically counted out raising chips. He did this quickly and calmly, in a way that made me think this had been his plan from the moment he saw the flop: to check-raise the turn. He was an older gentleman with a nitty playing style. Notably, he once said that he didn't like playing at the same table as his wife because he didn't approve of how she played, which further confirmed for me that he was not one to get out of line.

I called his raise, hoping for a pair on the river. It did not come. He bet the river, and I debated what to do. The standard play here is to pay him off. Was it possible that he had check-raised me with an Ace-King (for top two pair) or a set of deuces? In theory, yes, and against most other players I would have made a crying call. But I truly believed he had a flush (or possibly Broadway with a flush redraw), so I folded to his river bet.

The times it makes sense to bet/fold on the turn is usually in wide range spots where you have tons of air and some very thin value hands. That will usually be raising in late position in a single-raise pot heads up against the blinds or when you are sb and 3bet a late position open.

Those will be your best candidates to bet/fold because people are more likely to x/r bluff in these situations and you have a lot of hands that can defend against aggression. In general when ranges get tighter, your betting range has more equity, so you tend to continue more against aggression. Also, when pot odds get very good, your folding range should shrink, as minimum equity to continue becomes lower.

This is just my general heuristic for bet folding, and I think this is an area where exploits become very important. If you know someone is not x/r as a bluff, you can safely fold rivers with all your bluff catchers that would otherwise be in equilibrium and 0 ev.

Nice hand, as long as you didn't tell anyone what you folded,

If someone is more likely to x/r bluff, you want to fold less often, not more.

Is "small Stakes holdem" and "winning in tough holdem games" still relevant? What [besides 2p2] is the best resource?

.... @chilirob @bruce @checkraisedraw @agamblerthen

The Intelligent Poker Player, aside from being a more useful book than what you list, has some graphics about how to carve up your range into check/folds, check/calls, check/raises, bet/folds, bet/calls, and bet/raises.

The worst hands that you are betting (in an equity sense) are generally bet/folds. They can’t beat any value raises, and you don’t need to call with them to snap off bluffs. And you can bet/3b as a bluff hands with higher equity.

I read the Intelligent Poker Player quite a few years ago, so I may not remember it perfectly. But I remember it being an interesting read since I was interested in game theory, but that it wasn't particularly applicable to the games I generally played. I really can't imagine it is very useful to people playing small-stakes LHE. You do not need to worry much about anyone exploiting you in any smaller LHE game which is worth playing, and you should instead be trying to exploit them as much as possible.

Thank you. I did not. Nor did I ask him what he had.

I'm sure it's useful to learn how to think through certain situations. I agree it's not useful in small stakes games worth playing. I remember a while ago I posted a hand and somebody responded sarcastically "If only we had solvers we could run this through". I responded that I play against humans and not robots. Solvers are great for getting a baseline for how to play. The problem is understanding how to properly apply this information too real life games.

Small Stakes Hold'em provides a good foundation, but you still have to adjust to your particular player pool and game dynamics.

I haven't read the second book you mentioned, but it appears to be geared for online, 6-max, higher-stakes games. And its Amazon reviews are decidedly mixed.

The dirty little secret of low-stakes limit games is that often no one is winning except the house. Many times after playing for 3 or 4 hours I have looked around the table at everyone's chip stack and can see that everyone has less than a rack in front of them. In some games, we're just trading chips back and forth while the house drop, the jackpot drop, and dealer tips relentlessly erode our collective buy-ins. Thus game selection becomes more important than any strategy advice you might find in a book.

I also see a lot of seemingly irrational play, which makes it very hard to put opponents on a range: players who will never raise preflop; players who will cold-call raises with practically any two cards, even hands as weak as J4 and 92; and players who will miss the flop completely—no pair, no draw, no overcards even—yet still call and somehow make runner-runner two pair to beat your top pair or overpair. This can be very frustrating, thus making emotional control more important than any strategy advice you might find in a book.

This forum is a good resource in that it forces you to think through your decision-making on specific hands. I wouldn't expect any kind of consensus though.

NP TY

I also see a lot of seemingly irrational play, which makes it very hard to put opponents on a range: players who will never raise preflop; players who will cold-call raises with practically any two cards, even hands as weak as J4 and 92; and players who will miss the flop completely—no pair, no draw, no overcards even—yet still call and somehow make runner-runner two pair to beat your top pair or overpair. This can be very frustrating, thus making emotional control more important than any strategy advice you might find in a book.

This forum is a good resource in that it forces you to think through your decision-making on specific hands. I wouldn't expect any kind of consensus though.[/QUOTE]

Emotional control is VERY important.

Was playing 20-40 yesterday. I have a tight image. I raise UTG with black Aces. Flop comes with three hearts including the Ace of hearts. Fourth heart on the river. Player to my left wins the pot with 97o with the Seven of hearts.