OOP against a weak player, and a tough player again...Probably multiple mistakes made by me...

I mean...you can't fold, but I doubt you're good at the moment. Looks like AJ or A4 for value, or some sort of "eff it" shove with a draw.

I was wondering if I could have found a fold on the flop here. But because V2 could hold just an Ace and put me on a flush or combo draw, I think I have to call. Maybe had I raised to just $290, I could have folded to his flop shove.

Before check raising this flop, I should have given V2 more credit and scrutinized him a bit. He is usually quite a tough player. But on this day he had been running cold, and bad, and was into his 3rd buy-in. I had seen him make a couple questionable plays already, which I haven't seen from him in the past. I thought he might be off his game.

However, it turned out he had pocket 4s. Now, is that evidence of him being off his game? Is cold calling a $60 3-bet IP in the cutoff a profitable play? I mean, in this case it was for him, but overall is that a winning preflop play? 155B deep, is this an ok prefop call with 44 - should I consider adding this to my game?

Cold calling the 3B with 44 seems pretty optimistic. He'll have to fold if someone 4B's. He'll have to fold most flops if someone bets. If he's capable of making disciplined folds pre or post, and capable of getting max value when he hits a set, it's debatable, maybe.

I understand your play, when you spot the tell from V1, and think V2 is capped. It may be too aggro or too thin with our exact hand, and at this stack depth.

Problem is, if second villain is competent and also has a cold calling range of three bets, then that range is likely to be hugely condensed and strong. Also remember that he has reason to be concerned about us in this scenario as we opened UTG.

And then add in that he has to worry about you behind and he’s probably just dumping a hand like KQ (except the FD combo) and may even be inclined to fold a hand like ATs.

I really would not be shocked to see AK or JJ in this guy’s line here.

Fold pre obv.

Really? That's not too nitty?

I have vowed to fold AQo near 100% in the future in this situation.

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He 3b our utg open, people aren’t typically doing that with KQ or AJ.

All due respect to you and OD, if our read is that both V's are LAG, perhaps we can at least consider 4B'ing here, from OOP with AQo.

Not wanting to be results oriented, but I'd think a 4B folds out a lot of low-middling PP's and worse AX that can put us in the blender post-flop. Speaking as a LAG player, I'm generally willing to play marginal hands when I'm IP and deep, but I over-fold those marginal hands facing escalated aggression, especially from OOP TAGs.

If we 4B AQo and get 5B, it's an easy fold. I don't care how LAG they are. They're not 5B'ing worse than AQo. The problem with flatting AQo is we're in no-man's land post. The problem with folding is that we're over-folding vs the typical LAG's 3B (and 3B-calling) range, which is going to be WAY too wide.

See my post above. LAGs are. I know, because I'm LAG, and I'm frequently 3B'ing worse than AQo from LP, especially when playing deep.

Let me just add one more comment to this, in defense of my LAG 3B'ing range - at low stakes, I'm not getting punished nearly as often as I should be. People are generally under-3B'ing, and way under-4B'ing.

The fact that hero opened 3x UTG doesn't keep me from 3B'ing. His self-perception as TAG doesn't stop me. The fact that he's mostly won without showdown only emboldens me. The only thing that stops me from 3B'ing light is when an opponent shows me he's capable of 4B'ing with more than just AA/KK/AKs.

If CO sees hero as TAG, maybe he tightens up on his 3B range a little, but he still wants to 3B a fair bit, to shut out the BTN and the blinds, and get this HU and IP. If hero isn't 4B'ing enough, CO gets to the flop with the range advantage and position.

OP caught CO wincing when BTN called his c-bet. We can infer he was 3B'ing light, and we know BTN was cold-calling the 3B really light. 4B'ing a LAG 3B is going to be better than flatting and hoping to cooler or trap someone.

if hes that lag pre should be a 4 bet to either take the pot down now or get HU vs a range you are beating at a low SPR so you can pot flop shove turn on any board.

as played, if you CR the flop you are committing yourself for $1k with one pair, 1) on a board where its obvious what your range is, and 2) in a medium SPR multiway pot. only you can say if you think thats a good idea or not. in my 1/3 with $6 straddle games thats suicide.

Exactly. The only effective way to combat someone in position who is 3-betting us light is to 4-bet them lighter than normal.

AQo is a good 4b bluff, but I’m not looking to bluff when someone 3b against our utg range.

So seems the lesson is you misread the tell. "Wince" if not fake, was villain regretting giving villain a cheap draw.

But logically also a good reminder that villain is probably not really going to "wince" if a 1/2 psb cbet is called mw, even if he is bluffing, relative to his stacks.

Mathematically never finding raise-folds here, but given villain description I think Hero is going to xc down AQ for stacks frequently given villain description of 'LAG making frequent mistakes.' Check-call flop, and folding some turns also seems fine.

Given villain description I think calling the AQo is prob fine, we want to have some medium-strength hands with good postflop playability for him to punt off Stack sizing is also a bit awkward to 4!, though ripping our entire stack is actually not awful vs these kind of opponents with OOL ranges; 4! to 250-350 is a good way for Hero to torture himself with this exact hand.

If V2 is indeed a solid player, then his cold calling range should be extremely narrow and condensed (well, should he have a cold-calling range at all?): JJ-TT, maybe 99, maybe some good AXs, trapping with AA once in a blue moon (?). Anyway, he should fold most of his range to a 4bet.
V1 is a bit harder to range for me.

In any case, preflop is 4bet or fold; calling seems like the worst option, even more so when 3-ways.

As played, no reason whatsoever to c/r flop with your hand, with JJ and AJs being a significant part of V2's range: just call and evaluate.

As played, it's whatever: you probably "have to" call but you should really never end up here this way.

Just circling back to give opinion about everything leading up to V2's shove...

PRE - Opening AQo seems standard. If our read is that V1 and V2 are both LAG, I really want to 4B when V1 3B's us and V2 just flat calls.

I don't think V2 ever has a hand strong enough to call a 4B when he cold-calls a 3B, and I expect V1 to be 3B'ing too wide from MP/LP. I don't like going to the flop multi-way and OOP against two LAGs, and capping our range by flatting.

As the pre-flop 4B'er, I know I'll be c-betting most flops, no matter what the board is, so I'm not worried about 4B'ing pre and having to check flop from OOP because it's a bad board for our range and good for V's.

FLOP - I like the check in flow, but I could also see occasionally donking small here, with no club in our hand, expecting to get called by worse AX and draws.

The x/r is credible, because we could have AJ, and maybe occasionally JJ or A4. But I'd rather bluff with a hand that has less showdown value, and is drawing to the nuts, and blocks some of the AX combos our opponents might have, like KcJc, KcQc, or KcTc.

Our hand is too strong to turn into a bluff, but not quite strong enough to take this line for value, even if we think V1 is weak, and we suspect V2 might be.

Even though we don't think V2 had a very strong hand when he cold-calls the 3B pre-flop, he has to have something when he calls V1's 1/2 pot bet next to act. I'd think the 3B cold-calling range is going to have some AJ and suited ace-wheel combos like A4s in it. I wouldn't expect much 44, especially when he just flat calls the flop, but I wouldn't rule it out completely.

I don't think the x/r size is the big problem. We went just over 4x, which is fine, if not small, in a vacuum, because a x/r for value could be much bigger. The issue is V2 only has $715 behind. He'd be pot-committed if he calls, so it's jam or fold for him, and we can't fold if he jams.

Best case scenario, he has A4 for value, and we can make a better 2P with any Q or the board pairing a card higher than 4, giving us 9 outs, so we're like a 2:1 dog. We're in pretty rough shape when he has AJ or the unexpected 44. Ideally he just has the club draw, maybe with a pair, like KcJc, and it's a fair fight.

If he has the Robbie, J4, just tap the table and head home.

Results:

I called.
V had 44.

Calling preflop 3-bets IP with a small PP and 150BB stack...that can't be +EV unless you think you can grossly outplay your opponents and oversteal pots from them...

Preflop: Given the reads, I would 4bet. Your reads seem good. But if you’re not confident in your reads, or against unknowns, preflop is always a fold.

Flop: AP, now you’re hating life because you called. You called preflop and hit your ace. How can you call the flop but now fold AQ? I call the flop because I suck and hate AQ, but I respect the raise. At least you don’t seem weak. You represent 44, JJ, AJ. V2 pro with whom I don’t want to play is capped? Wtf.

AP fold. Sorry. Playing AQ is tough.

Maybe he 3b us light. Maybe he had KK. I am not opposed to 4b as a way of protecting ourselves but I’d rather fold in this config.

Granted we would’ve lost less if we 4b here so chalk one up to Doc.

Please don't take any of this as an "I told you so."

In theory, V2 shouldn't be cold-calling 3B's pre with low PP's. He really shouldn't have any 3B cold-calling range at all. The fact that he cold calls the 3B at all would make me wonder if he thinks we're not 4B'ing enough, or V1 is making so many mistakes that it's worth calling wide, even with the risk that we might occasionally 4B. It's possible both are true.

If we were playing at our best, we should seriously consider 4B'ing here, not because AQo is strong enough to 4B for value, but simply because V2 is severely capping his range when he cold calls the 3B, and we'd rather not cap our own range by flatting behind, and playing a bloated pot multi-way and OOP to both opponents.

If he's cold-calling because he doesn't think we'll be 4B'ing enough, his range is going to be wider, meaning we can and should be 4B'ing more. I think AQo is a reasonable hand to 4B as a semi-bluff. We block AA/QQ, and benefit from folding out some hands with decent equity. It's an easy hand to fold if we get 5B.

V2 probably did think he could out-play you and V1. That's basically what he did. While his pre-flop call with 44 is bad on paper, he correctly sussed out that you probably don't have AA when you don't 4B pre, and it's unlikely you have JJ in this line.