re: two part debate with a friend and need others opinions
Here's a hand I was discussing with a friend. I will hide a second part of the debate for view after seeing the hand. The second part also gives away villain's hand.
This is a live 8 handed cash game with blinds 2-3-5. 2 on the button, 3/5 sb bb. Effective stack 1350 on btn.
Pre:
utg opens to 20 and btn calls. Hero 3b with AJcc from bb to 100 and both utg and button calls.
Flop
8s10dJs
Hero cb 150 and utg calls and btn jams all in for 1100. I was given no info on utg.
Action back to hero who covers button.
Call or fold? Why?
We both have played with this villain before and consider him a solid reg who's not very bluffy. I was later told by my friend that he saw this guy 3b 10J suited pre and flop a gutshot flush draw on flop of QQ8. He cb flop and x brick turn and river and was visibly upset at himself for playing the hand softly after he lost to a small underpair.
My response:
Spoiler
I told my friend he should be folding AJ here because the hands the button jams here are generally made hands that are two pairs plus that beat his AJ or big combo draws that are mostly beating his AJ also. Against that range, it's a fold imo. He said he called and that the villain turned over A10ss.
The second part of the debate:
Spoiler
He later says if I fold AJ here, then says that means I'm also folding AA KK here. I tell him those are not the same situation and AA and KK are much better than AJ in this situation. He goes on to say AA is much better he agrees, but he says KK is worse than Aj in this situation because the villain can no longer hit an ace. I tell him that's not true because he only can say that because he knows the villain has A10ss after the fact. When making the decision, we don't know the villain's hand and KK is way better than Aj against the villain's range. In the same discussion we were having, he earlier said that he believes KQss is a better hand than A10ss pre flop on the button when we were discussing the villain's range. I said maybe he feels that way and it's his opinion, but mathematically, A10 is a better hand. I screenshot A10 vs KQ equities against each other pre flop to show him that A10 is always beating KQ. He later screen shots how A10 is worse than KQ by pitting them both against AA and I try to tell him that it's the same thing as what he tried to say earlier with the KK vs A10 and Aj vs A10 where he's looking at the values against a specific hand when we never truly know the opponents hand and we can't value hands that way.
Opinions on the way the hand analysis and the second part of the debate?
9 Replies
Cbetting flop OOP v 2 opponents feels unnecessary. Check/evaluate performs better IMO. Facing the shove, it's a fold against an overwhelming majority of opponents. The "bluffs" are basically only draws that all have 12+ outs against you, pretty much all combo draws on this board. When you're behind you're super crushed.
As for the debates in the spoilers, yeah you should/can probably fold AA/KK in this spot. Getting "exploited" in a situation where people are grossly underbluffing and the bluffs have massive equity versus you is not you getting exploited at all. It's making a proper "disrespectful fold", with the knowledge/assumption that your opponent isn't capable. The other retrospective stuff is whatever but doesn't really provide any value to your game(s).
I totally agree with not cbetting the flop.. I didn't mention that because it isn't quite what I am trying to get an opinion on. I also think AA KK is probably a fold but I wouldn't personally cbet anyways to be in that situation. The AA KK part I'm asking more is do you think AJ or KK is a better hand to have in that situation and whether or not his argument that AJ is better than KK is correct
The trouble I have with villain's line- especially if he's a "solid reg"- is that based on preflop play, his only value is 3combos of 88 and 2 combos of JTs. Does he shove 88 on that spot? I think people are more inclined to shove their two pairs there-but try a more milking line with 88. So, if you give villain all combos of 88, it's a clear fold. If not, the equities run closer and you might be able to call given the dead money.
The 3bet pre with AJs is also a tad loose vs UTG.
tbh the players here are generally pretty loose and calling preflop with a wider range plays okay because of how loose players can be. He originally only called 20 dollars and is then closing the action on the button for 80 more dollars into a pot that is already 220+ with position. Many hands worth 20 bucks, can be considered calling imo and I can see a lot of other players calling widely that way as well.
What are your thoughts on the second part about AJ being better than KK in this situation on the flop facing an all in?
I'm more curious about why you're 3-betting with AJs from the blinds given that UTG raised?
Without reads on UTG, your play here is to fold preflop.
I understand the questionable decisions with the 3b and the cb.. but that's not what I'm trying to get an opinion on here. Just asking two questions. Flop fold or call to the jam. Is AJ or KK better when facing an all in on the flop with this board.
I understand the questionable decisions with the 3b and the cb.. but that's not what I'm trying to get an opinion on here.
OK, but that's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer and then saying, "What should I do about this headache?"
To answer your "2 questions":
1) fold flop
2) I would prefer to have KK than AJ here (greater equity than AJ)
I think to answer your question we need to assign ranges to villains first.
Preflop
UTG ranges, lots of pp in including QQ+ that slowplays especially if he believes you squeeze light.
Some suited connectors/broadways etc, AQ+.
Btn ranges include pp but not QQ+/AK+ premium type hands, suited connectors broadways type hand as well.
Flop
Just UTG calling range is very strong has alot of equity vs your hand includes {QQ+, AQ+, sets, some fd/st8d, some combo draw, some Jx like AJ/QJs}
Btn shoving range includes {fd, st8d, combodraws, sets, TJ/T8/J8/97/Q9}
1)When we have AJ facing a call and a jam on a super wet board, this is easiest snap fold
I think the mindset for AJ here is, we either flipping or way behind. Unless you have live reads that villain is on a draw, then even after you call, UTG is definitely folding. Otherwise, there's no way in hell we can call here.
2)As for KK/AA, this improves our equity by a little, also we have a good enough hand that isn't too afraid of UTG range now. You do realize BTN range also includes Ax fd, some KQ with or without the fd type hands.
AA/KK do alot better vs these hands than AJ.
I think AA/KK is probably a call, sure we get owned by his 2pairs, sets type hands sometimes. But this was a 3bet pot, the stacks aren't deep enough to fold them imho.
AJ most of the time is dead vs 2pairs and sets, whereas AA/KK has alot more equity.
3) You forgot to mention QQ. QQ is a call as well, you have 4 outs to draw the st8, 2 outs for a set if we are behind.
