GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

The NBA represents the top 400 players in the world and edges are razor-thin... Accordingly, 3 years of zero development/improvement while sacrificing your peak for bron-ball will put a player that was surging ahead of the pack now behind the pack.

So anytime you see a guy like Ben Simmons or some other borderline all-star or all-star-level player take a couple years off for some reason, don't expect them to come back like they were - the small edge they had is long gone.

Hughes, Love, Bosh and others sacrificed this edge and status as a leading guy to be a role player in bron-ball... Love had the most to lose by sacrificing a perennial All-NBA stature so he could be remembered as an underperforming role player that required Lebron to "need more help"... Of course, we know that Lebron had the preseason favorite but then won 50-someting games with it, and this underperforming of favored talent (bad chemistry) caused a fall to underdog... It turns out that turning teammates into spot-up shooter is a suboptimal skillset, and the only player that has this skillset is a high-scoring primary ballhandler, aka ball-dominator, due to their high volume of unassisted buckets (low assisted rates at high scoring levels, aka ball-dominance).

Hughes was a prodigal #2 pick and started out far better than Pippen - he remained better until 2005 when he joined Lebron (26 years old).. Only then did Pippen continue growing and Hughes stop growing.. This is the historical record, not my opinion.

And it's objective fact that defending the slowest PG of all-time who was actually way past his prime is not a good example of Pippen being a great defender.

Again, it would be far more impressive for Pippen's own matchups to say he "wouldn't let you score if he didn't want you to" like MJ's matchups say... I'd like to hear that from Dominique, X-Man, Schrempf, Glenn Robinson, Mashburn, Hill, Penny, Rice, Howard, Dumas, Worthy.. Instead, they all scored on him like he wasn't even there, and much easier than they did on MJ.. There's plenty of video to prove this for anyone that wasn't there to witness Mashburn drop 50 points on Pippen's head at home in Chicago... Or Jordan having to switch onto Penny or Hill after they were destroying Pippen.. Or MJ having to play the "enforcer" role with X-Man in Game 7 after X-Man was dominating and bullying Pippen (to illicit another "migraine")... Aguirre, Rodman, and Anthony Mason punking the daylights out of Pippen.

The list goes on and on... The 94' Knicks were up 2-0 before they started playing with their food in game 3 and came back from 22 down in the 4th before Kukoc made them pay... Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter through 5 games of that series.. There are so many overt chokes by Pippen to lose big games like missing the bunny to miss 70 wins in 1997.. Thanks Pip... And there are a ton of chokes where MJ saved the day anyway, such as the 98' ECF where Pippen misses 2 FT's right before Miller's shove-off - Miller talked sh*t to Pippen while Pippen was at the FT line.. It's worth a quick re-watch.. Despite Pippen routinely tricking games off, MJ still won in 7 while Pippen averaged 16 on 39%... Tbh, he played exactly like Hughes.

History gets lost on new fans.

For example, the Sonics were the best team in the league in 1994 with 64 wins, but they were historically upset by Dikembe's 8 seeded Nuggets... This was after the Sonics upset Hakeem in the 93' Playoffs and then lost an epic 7-game series to Barkley's Suns in the WCF.. They also had 3 All-NBA selections in 1995.

The point is the Sonics were a long-standing, battle-tested organic juggernaut just like the Rockets, Jazz, Spurs, and Blazers.. ALL the western conference contenders in the 90's were long-standing organic juggernauts that took turns winning the western bloodbath - this means that all of Jordan's Finals opponents were battle-tested warriors that were having their banner year with everything going for them - MJ beat 6 buzz saws in the Finals.. 6 freight trains.. He didn't get to face newbie teams in the Finals like Shaq's Magic, the 15' Warriors, 12' Thunder, or 20' Heat

It isn't incredible - it's literally fraud:

All-NBA 1st Team

SGA: +918

Jokic: +594

Tatum: +534

Mitchell: +522

Giannis: +334


All-NBA 2nd Team

Mobley: +546

Curry: +299

Ant: +291

Brunson: +146

Lebron: -54


All-NBA 3rd Team

J-Dub: +456

KAT: +378

Harden: +344

Haliburton: +222

Cade: +175


https://www.statmuse.com/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GrySE3yXkAAA...

It’s absolutely not just the lakers being bad, since Luka, AD, Reaves all had their best +- numbers when Lebron was not on the court. And lebron is negative without them, as shown below..

In games any two of these guys both played:

Don’t know how you can look at this and not think something is going on. Even if you want to blame (Lebron by himself) on bad bench guys, how come every star also thrives when he’s off the court

Luka was +20(!) in non lebron minutes!

There’s some evidence Lebron was the biggest fake stats guy in the league last year

Hindsight is 20/20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr7vHAeC...

Like how come Lebron prevent « good players » to be great players by playing with him and yet they cant win by themselves when Lebron is not there ….

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FYI - U can't whine about being Finals underdog when u barely win 50 game with the preseason favorite.

It's another hole in Lebron's resume that his Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, which are initially favored.

Lebron only won 50-57 games with the preseason favorite in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year.. His teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3),

A pattern of falling to underdog despite favored talent/preseason favorites is a sign of a skillset that produces low team ceilings, similar to bad records on the championship level (Finals).. Lebron's ball-dominance or need to go "down-hill" turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which turns preseason favorites into underdog.

Things to that show Lebron's impact is overrated drastically:

* team-hopping GUTS teams, so the 2011 Cavs didn't just lose Lebron, they lost Varejao, Mo, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte.. That's 52 ppg combined.. You guys always complain about the 95' Bulls losing Grant but the 11' Cavs lost about 5 Grants (52 ppg)... Of course the 19' Cavs were missing their 1st option (Love), while the 16' Heat nearly made the ECF without Bosh.

* Look how Wade won FMVP before Lebron and Kyrie made the 24' Finals

* Look how Cleveland and Miami have rebuilt to Finals teams despite weak casts or 64 wins for Cleveland... Lebron's presence hurts the chemistry required for this type of organic, non-super-team growth.

It's also funny how AD won a game off the 18' Warriors, while Lebron was swept by record margin, and then was swept by the Nuggets despite having AD on his team.. So Lebron's impact is middle-of-the-pack when you consider that he often had negative impact or underperformed favored rosters.

Yeah so?
How this got to do with what I said ?
Without Lebron , all those « great players » that couldn’t « perform » with Lebron never won anything without Lebron beside wade which btw had Shaq .
….

Funny ain’t it ?
You -> conjecture , conjecture, conjecture .
You rather believe some farfetched theories of yours instead of just looking at what actually happened in real life.

Take that entire quote and apply it to Kobe and Lebron in 2011 !
Kobe got swept (with a 2 times championship roaster ) while Lebron lost 4-2 ….

Many misconceptions itt

You can't say "they didn't win without Lebron" when they did - Wade did (bolded above), and Kyrie did better than Pippen too by making the Finals.

More importantly, AD is the only player in history to arrive on a lottery team and turn them into champion in 1 season (2020)... It's a goat season that he gets no credit for... He produced this goat turnaround by leading the Lakers in scoring and turning a horrific defense into the #1 defense... So AD won more than Pippen too by winning the title in 2020 with a goat season... It's even more impressive than Wade's title in 2006.. To summarize, tons of Lebron's teammates won as the top guy on their team (with or without him).

Furthermore, the 2019 Lakers had Zubacs, Caruso, Josh Hart, Ingram, Kuzma, Rondo, and KCP, yet Lebron couldn't develop this into a champion like Jordan did far less help (BJ, Grant, Pippen)..

People simply forget that Lebron diluted the East with the "decision" to put the top 3 first options in the conference on 1 team, aka super-team, aka big 3, aka "not 6, not 7")... This dilution allowed him to win the 2013 East without facing a 50-win opponent, or the 14' ECF with only 22.8 ppg from Lebron... That's why I laugh when people praise Lebron for the 18' Playoffs when he barely beat the injured and baby Celtics (no Kyrie) with a 3-time defending conference champion... People overrate this trash, so they were shocked when Lebron stunk in a non-manufactured conference in 2019.

Lebron's Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, since his rosters are initially favored as the preseason favorite.

Lebron's teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3) and also 2021... However, he only won 50-57 games with preseason favorites in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year.

A pattern of falling to underdog despite favored talent is a sign of a skillset that produces low team ceilings, similar to bad records on the championship level (Finals).. Lebron's ball-dominance or need to go "down-hill" turns everyone into spot-up shooter and lacks ball movement or chemistry, thus underperforming favored talent (preseason favorites).
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College counts and the GOAT is Kareem hands down. Thanks for playing. 😀

It looks like LeBron might have passed Kareem in top 10 MVP seasons this year, 18-17. First glance. I mean that's a pretty good hallmark of continuing to be a dominant player. Doubt if anybody else is close??

Well it certainly isn't Lebron.

It's easy to forget that the 2019 Lakers had Zubacs, Caruso, Josh Hart, Ingram, Kuzma, Rondo, and KCP, yet Lebron couldn't develop this into a champion like Jordan did far less help (Grant, BJ, Pippen)..

People simply forget that Lebron diluted the East with the "decision" to put the top 3 first options in the conference on 1 team, aka super-team, aka big 3, aka "not 6, not 7"... This dilution allowed him to win the 2013 East without facing a 50-win opponent, or the 14' ECF with only 22.8 ppg from Lebron... That's why I laugh when people praise Lebron for the 18' Playoffs for beating an injured team (no Kyrie) - he beat the injured, baby Celtics with a 3-time defending conference champion... The 1990 Sixers or 89' Knicks destroy them for example... People overrate this trash in 2018, so they were shocked when Lebron stunk in a non-manufactured conference in 2019.

1997 is the only "4 on 5" chip ever won by virtue of 4 ppg on 37% by Rodman in the playoffs (and 8 rpg).

So Kareem and Lebron can't carry teams like Jordan.. Their "longevity" amounts to playing at a lower level for longer.. They couldn't dream of winning and dominating like MJ.

In the 97' Playoffs, the Bulls' offense was worse than a lottery team with 101 ortg when Rodman was on the floor (4 on 5), which is why he wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs... Kukoc was the starter, so MJ won with role players at the PF position, and some of them had historic futility like 97' Rodman, aka the only 4 on 5 chip ever won.

This fossil version of Rodman is no different than Ben Wallace in 08' or Shaq in 10'... His role player status certainly wasn't part of a "big 3", which requires 3 franchise players from 3 different teams to join forces on 1 team - it obviously doesn't include role players that make a team go 4 on 5 to win (unprecedented)..

The 97' Bulls are also the only title team to have only 2 guys in double figures for the playoff run.. I think this is 3-point era only, but it might be of all-time..

Lebron's Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, since his rosters are initially favored as the preseason favorite.

He only won 50-57 games with preseason favorites in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year... Lebron's teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3) and also 2021.

A pattern of falling to underdog despite favored talent is a sign of a skillset that produces low team ceilings.. Bad records on the championship level (Finals) also indicate low team ceilings.. Lebron's ball-dominance or need to go "down-hill" turns everyone into spot-up shooter and lacks ball movement or chemistry, thus underperforming favored talent (preseason favorites).

Carrying the "star" category of scoring requires less star help, thus allowing GM's to acquire good defenders and role players..

Otoh, ball-dominators like Lebron choke in the clutch against Orlando and are too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams - this inability to carry the scoring load requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, along with his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter.

There was a diss of Kareem back in the 70's that he was a bit lackluster, unspirited player at times. He did go nearly 10 years without a title after the first one with the Bucks/Oscar until the Lakers/Magic. When his teams even missed the playoffs a few times he was deemed heavily responsible.

A close look reveals that Kareem either won the NBA title or lost to the team that did win the title in the playoffs a total of 14 times in his career. Losing to juggernauts like the Knicks, Lakers (1972 GOAT team), Celtics, Trailblazers, Sixers, Pistons. Seems kind of comparable to some of James losses to mega-teams.

College counts and Kareem GOAT seems a strong case. Chamberlain GOAT stats, Kareem GOAT career achievement. Maybe MJ and LeBron second in those two categories respectively ... is where I'm at now.

OKC finished with a 68-24 season with the greatest point differential of all time. They are currently 12-4 in the playoffs with a point differential of around 10. And it took the best player of the last 5 years to win 3 of those. This individual 5 year run is as good as anyone's in the history of the league.

They are led by SGA who has an assisted rate of 13.5% in these playoffs (23.8% in the regular season).

In the other conference we have Indiana who is led by Halliburton who, checks notes, has an assist rate of 29.6% during these playoffs.

So I guess Jordan cratered Rodman.

You saying it's better for MJ to lose the Finals or earlier, so he can say that he lost to the champs like Kareem can... That's absurd... It goes without saying that MJ would've lost to the champs if he lost in the Finals a bunch like Kareem, or lost many times to fellow 1 or 2 seeds (who eventually won the title)... But MJ never lost with top seeds or in the Finals, so you're asking MJ to be inferior like Kareem...

Nonetheless, if we're judging MJ by including his losing like you prefer, then he still lost to the champs or won the title 9 of 15 seasons (60%).. So MJ fulfills your "failure vs top teams required" criteria pretty well, although your "point" is wrong - it reverses the definition of winning, which is to stop OTHERS from winning.. Kareem is worst-ever at this by losing to the widest range of opponents ever, despite having superior rosters each time.

So Kareem's vast inferiority is rooted in producing significantly weaker teams with bevies of HOF's that get destroyed in the playoffs or lottery year after year... There's no comparison.. Kareem couldn't win with bevies of HOF's and ultimately needed top 10 players and the goat PG's to win.. He did much less with much more, while being the best player for only 2 or 3 titles, and he was still being carried by teammates for all his titles compared to MJ's load.

For all these obvious reasons, there's never been a debate between Jordan and Kareem - Klutch Media simply made that up after an entire history of Jordan always being considered superior... Specifically, since Jordan entered the league, he was always considered better than Kareem (85-87'), or GOAT (93' onwards, or earlier).

And college doesn't count.. It never did... Again, you're making that up after an entire history of it not counting .. It's part of the fraud... And it's also where your post would give it away to the layman - even they would think that's weird... The NBA is the best basketball, not college, otherwise Shawn Respert and Adam Morrison would highly-rated players historically (maybe these aren't exact examples, but you get the point why college accomplishment doesn't mean anything in a goat debate and never has).
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