Is it a Dealer's Obligation to State a Player's Tabled Hand?
P1 bets on the river. P2 calls. P1 shows his cards. Does the dealer have an obligation to state P1’s hand without being asked?
Absolutely not
Cash or tourney? NLHE or PLO or O8 or 2-7…
I’m sure it will be 50/50 based on what I’ve seen in C&CP. I personally have no problem with dealer pushing up 3, 4, or 5 cards on a NLHE board, or 3 on a PLO board, or announcing Hi and Lo (if qualified in O8) or low in 2-7.
Speeds up game, helps with visually impaired people.
Obligated is the word, and I will say by definition of “hand speaks for itself,” dealer is not obligated.
Anyone arguing about P2 who could misread the hand and muck a winner is usually ok with dealer silence at showdown.
If p2 shows his hand, dealer should announce the winning hand and push the pot.
If p2 does nothing, dealer can tell him to show or muck.
Reading the freaking hand is part of the game. If you want the dealer to do it for you, the price of that is tabling your own hand.
It was PLO, not that it should matter. Or does it?
In this particular instance, the novice player took at least 8 seconds to interrupt the hand before releasing their holdings.
I've seen many times, in this room, where the tabled hands ranking is announced.
What it boils down to, is there a rule where the dealer HAS to announce or push the community cards forward of P1's hand, showing the tabled hands value? No community cards were touched. Just the dealer waiting for P2 to show or release.
If this is something that is a grey area?
If p2 shows his hand, dealer should announce the winning hand and push the pot.
If p2 does nothing, dealer can tell him to show or muck.
Reading the freaking hand is part of the game. If you want the dealer to do it for you, the price of that is tabling your own hand.
Dealer certainly CAN and in many rooms is supposed to read any tabled hand.
It was PLO, not that I feel it should be an issue, but it was asked.
In this particular instance, the novice player took at least 8 seconds to interrupt the hand before releasing their holdings.
I've seen many times in this room and others, if not always, where the tabled hands ranking is immediately announced by the dealer. Are dealer's breaking the rules when they announce a hand on the river where only one hand is tabled? We all have witnessed this more times than not. No?
What it boils down to, is there a rule where the dealer HAS to announce or push the community cards forward of P1's hand or any tabled hand, showing the hands value immediately? Or is it the Dealer's option to wait?
What it may do, is allow the dealer to favor one player over another.
When it is said that "the hand speaks for itself", I agree, but at what point? Is the dealer wrong to announce one tabled hand before the other is exposed?
Is this a grey area of the rules? If so, should it be clarified?
If p2 shows his hand, dealer should announce the winning hand and push the pot.
If p2 does nothing, dealer can tell him to show or muck.
Reading the freaking hand is part of the game. If you want the dealer to do it for you, the price of that is tabling your own hand.
Do you believe in your heart that OP is asking what internet forum user ninefingershuffle would like to be true? The bar is so, so low here.
is there a rule where the dealer HAS to announce or push the community cards forward of P1's hand or any tabled hand, showing the hands value immediately?
[...]
Is the dealer wrong to announce one tabled hand before the other is exposed?
To be sure, you are asking two completely different questions here. Agreed?
What it boils down to, is there a rule where the dealer HAS to announce or push the community cards forward of P1's hand, showing the tabled hands value? No community cards were touched. Just the dealer waiting for P2 to show or release
There is no rule. It is a room procedure, which is a slightly different thing than a rule. Each room can/should tell the dealers how to handle the showdown. Absent that, each dealer does it however they learned to do it.
My personal preference is to just announce it when the first hand is tabled and speed things along. I'm OK to wait until someone asks or a second hand is tabled, but I don't think it's better to do either. But as long as it's consistent (ideally by all dealers, but at least by each dealer) then it is fine.
I definitely do not think that reading a tabled hand is or should be a required skill to play in a poker game. For one, it excludes visually impaired folks. For two, it disincents new players. For three, it slows the game down. Cards speak.
If p2 shows his hand, dealer should announce the winning hand and push the pot.
If p2 does nothing, dealer can tell him to show or muck.
Reading the freaking hand is part of the game. If you want the dealer to do it for you, the price of that is tabling your own hand.
lol
It's called "cards speak" for a reason.
To be fair, “cards speak” means that neither the player nor the dealer has to declare the value of a hand for it to have its inherent value. You can win without seeing you have a better hand than you thought you did, and the dealer cannot over or under declare your hand and have it stick by rule.
It does not really mean that a dealer or player is required to announce the value of or indicate the winning cards/hand. If anything it means the opposite, you could theoretically have a completely silent and motionless showdown with multiple hands tabled, because it is the cards themselves that announce their value.
Announcing hands is just a room procedure to speed the game along and make it a more friendly and less angley experience for all.
The reason I mentioned it at all is because it helps diffuse any OPTAH concerns. You are specifically not aiding a player by reading the hand, because it has that value regardless of whether it (or any other mistaken value) is announced or not, similar to another recent post about reading out the value of a board card. Reading the card and reading the hand is a matter of fact, not of judgment.
As has been noted it is up to the rooms as to how they handle it.
In my experience it usually differs within a room and is based on how each Dealer chooses to handle it. This is especially true in large tournaments where some of the dealers are temps or like in the WSOP where there are hundreds of dealers many from other places who have full time jobs in other card rooms.
I have seen dealers say out loud what the winning hand is. I have seen dealers pull up the cards on the board to show what is combined with the winning tabled hand. I have seen dealers who say the overall value of the hand like "flush" or "straight" or "two pair" without being specific about what the hand is.
One time at Foxwoods in a 20/40 LHE game I bluffed the river and got called. I had missed a straight and a flush. But I confidently turned over my hand and the dealer didn't say "J high". I think the dealer pushed up the 3 cards on the board that played and the other player thought I had hit my straight and mucked. Somebody else at the table then said "you couldn't beat J high? Why did you call?". The guy then tilted and won about $2,000 because he started playing very aggressively. I would have done better that session to announce my hand as "J high or I missed"...
It gets interesting when a player tables a hand that plays the board. Here is where dealers sometimes say "playing the board" or say what the actual hand is. Dealers also sometimes hesitate because they don't want to appear like they are helping the other player who may be hesitating to turn over their hand. Twice in tournaments I won a hand while playing the board because the other player was hesitating, the dealer didn't say "playing the board" and they mucked their hand. In one of those cases I said "playing the board" and the other player must not have heard me or understood what I had said. The other time the dealer said "straight" because there was a straight on the board.
Most interesting is when the dealer gets it wrong. Then it is up to the players to make the correction before the next hand starts (so the chips that were being sent to the wrong person can be legally returned to their rightful owner). Recently at Foxwoods in a 2/5 NL cash game the dealer failed to see that A9s that had missed their flush actually won the hand with a 9 on the river vs a 77. The dealer turned over the board and started pushing the pot without announcing what the winning hand was thinking that 77 was the only pair in the hand. Several players (including me) spoke up as he was pushing the chips. The winning hand player was in a daze and thought that somehow he had lost the hand once the dealer was pushing the pot to the other player. Fortunately the board was still on the table in its own separate pile and when the dealer turned it face up he realized that the 9 on the river had changed who was ahead and he just hadn't seen that the 9 had paired the A9s hand. Which had been turned over after the 77 had been turned over (which usually means that the player thinks he had the winning hand...)
"Cards speak" means that anyone speaking on behalf of the cards cannot be considered to be violating anything that the cards are not violating themselves.
The bar is in ****ing hell dude, just step over it. This isn't difficult.
As a dealer, whenever P1 turns over their hand and is playing the board, I always announce what his hand is (i.e straight to the 9 or two pair with an Ace, or whatever). I never say "he is playing the board". To me it is a small but subtle difference. To me saying "he is playing the board" tells everyone else none of his cards play. It effectively gives them information that helps them play their own hand better than they might not have realized on their own. I feel like it is helping other players.
It is small and subtle and it is something I would never argue about, even if a dealer did it to me when I was playing, but I think it is more in the spirit of OPTAH.
Two very mildly interesting stories on that.
The first, was a board was something like A Q 10 9 7. All clubs. The first player proudly turns over his hand and it is 5c 4s. His club does not play. I push up all five cards on the board and declare a flush with A Q 10 9 7 of clubs. The ither player is on the other side of the table and looks at his opponents hand and asks me if he has a club?
I stutter and then stop and pause a rather long time trying to figure out how to properly answer the question. I consider just saying "Yes" because it is the technically correct answer to his question, but I think it is misleading. I then consider saying "Yes, but it doesn't play." but I feel like that is helping him play his hand. Finally I settle on "He has the 5c." I feel this accurately answers his stated question without helping him play his hand.
The second was a $2/$5 table were a stranger was up against a regular who was a pro. Very good poker player and very nice guy. Got along with everyone.
Flop was 6 9 Q rainbow. Bet and a raise and a call. Turn was another Q. Check, bet, call. River is another 6. Action goes check, tank, finally check. There is probably $400 in the pot.
Stranger turns over 78h I push up the board and announce two pair queens and sixes with a 9. Reg pro, looks at his cards, sighs, swears under his breath and folds. I muck his cards and give him a look, but he isn't paying attention. He is in mourning over the pot.
I push the pot and the stranger doesn't tip. Whatever. I deal out the next hand, since the reg pro is in seat 9, when he folds I lean in and ask him if he is under the weather or tired because in the last hand his opponent was playing the board. He had 8 high.
He replays everything through his mind and gets semi-pissed at himself. He says he had J10 for a missed straight as well, but his J played. He quickly got over it and laughed. Then he playfully got pretend mad at me for rubbing it in. He then jokes that he is never going to tip me again. He takes it a step further and asks the other player how much he tipped me because he says I won the pot for the other player by the way I announced his hand. Other player felt a bit of shame after that and then throws me a dollar. Pro is all over him and says he should give me half the pot because I earned it for him. At least give me $5. The stranger then sheepishly throws in $10. I thank the stranger profusely.
A few hands later the reg pro asks me how I could hang him out to dry like that? I told him that if the roles were reversed I would have announced it the exact same way. He nods and says that is fair.
I do think it is worthwhile when the last to act on the river and you are not going to bet and the board plays, you should always confidently turn over your hand and announce the board as your hand. It never hurts and might get one player to fold.
Years ago, there were some rule books that stated that you had to announce you are playing the board to play it. I assume it was in to prevent angle shooting.
It raises an interesting question: what was your hand if you didn't announce "board"? The best hand you could make using at least one of your cards? So with a 8-Q straight on the board you might end up with Q hi if you hold 67 and don't announce "board"?
I like it thematically, but prefer a solution that doesn't convolute itself to punish the angle, if indeed it is an angle. I definitely prefer the dealer just push up all 5 board cards and say straight. (and do the same even if you have 78, 89, JQ, AQ, or any other simlar hand.)
Years ago, there were some rule books that stated that you had to announce you are playing the board to play it. I assume it was in to prevent angle shooting.
Robert's Rules of Poker. It's still "on the books" today, as Bob is not around to update it. He even implies that you can ditch your cards and still make a claim for the pot so long as you declare that you are playing the board!
I believe that was the case at Bellagio until several years ago.
But I never heard that you had to declare "board" to play it. I'm sure that anyplace where you tabled your hand, you would be credited with the best hand possible, including playing the board if that was the best. Declaring "board" was only necessary if you didn't table your hole cards.
That would be a terrible rule otherwise, and I don't remember RROP having any terrible rules like that. Can anyone quote the passage?
