GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
1992 Finals
Pippen > Drexler - Rebounds
Pippen > Drexler - Assists
Pippen > Drexler - Steals
Pippen > Drexler - FG%
Pippen > Drexler - 3p%
I mean Drexler did average 4ppg more. It did take him more than 4 shots per game to achieve this though, which isn't ideal.
Pippen was the second option on offense to be fair. A bit like Kyrie.
Shaq entered the league in 92' and played Pippen in 95' and 96' playoffs, so he's talking about those years that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report.
Again, that's peak Pippen that wasn't on the scouting report.
Pippen was a bricklayer for his entire career, and he confessed to Rachel Nichols that he failed in Houston because he couldn't shoot.. He clogged the lane for Jordan.
btw FG, after dissing kobe on how great was scottie on D.here is another one that hate scottie, but clearly gives his props to him .i wonder if u can ever find anyone calling pippen a bad defender like u do ?And why no one ever spoke how pippen wasnt ever a controversy for him to finish so often in the best defending team in the league ?
Again, show me where actual SF matchups said that.
Jordan's matchups at SG said that "if Jordan didn't want you to score, you didn't score".. Accordingly, show me where Glenn Robinson, Mashburn, Dominique or other SF's say stuff like that about Pippen.
The reality is that every SF destroyed Pippen.
The only people that speak the common empty sayings about Pippen's defense are the media and former players when they get into the media (Isiah, Kobe).
And it's due to "group think"... It's very common and in this case, the fans, media and players can't compliment Pippen's offense the way they do other stars, so they got good at complimenting his defense.. This is why his defense is so overrated despite the film showing him getting destroyed by X-Man, Rice, Schrempf and every other SF.
Btw, keep in mind that before Isiah entered the media and even when he was in the media, he said Pippen was a "bum" and also a "bus-rider" on NBA TV - that's where the term originated - Isiah and Barkley said Pippen was a bus-rider.
Meanwhile Dominique called Pippen a "role player" (easy to find on youtube).
1992 Finals*
Pippen > Drexler - role player stuff
Pippen > Drexler - role player stuff
Pippen > Drexler - role player stuff
Pippen > Drexler - role player stuff
Pippen > Drexler - role player stuff
* the symbol ">" doesn't mean "greater".. It means "basically the same"
Fixed your post above
I mean Drexler did average 4ppg more. It did take him more than 4 shots per game to achieve this though, which isn't ideal.
Drexler was a franchise player tasked with living up to his 35 ppg ceiling against the GOAT.. An entire city was banking on him to come through.
And this was his 2nd chance - he had already averaged 26 ppg against the Bad Boys in 1990, but this time he would be expending more energy than ever defending the GOAT, which would zap his capacity for offense.
Otoh, Pippen was an unnoticed role player on offense that wasn't tasked with being the primary defender on the opponent's best perimeter player until 96' Penny, and then 98' and 99' Rice - he was torched all 3 times, but no one cared or expected him to dominate, or even take important shots.. 15 on 34% was perfectly fine because no one noticed then or now - Pippen's secret is safe in this thread.
Shaq entered the league in 92' and played Pippen in 95' and 96' playoffs, so he's talking about those years that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report.
Again, that's peak Pippen that wasn't on the scouting report.
Pippen was a bricklayer for his entire career, and he confessed to Rachel Nichols that he failed in Houston because he couldn't shoot.. He clogged the lane for Jordan.
Does it matter on what we are talking about anyway , D ?
Ps: u don’t consider Russel , your number 2 of all time I think , a brick layer ?
He could barely hit a Free throw lol….
FG the double standard / master deflector topics ….
Again, show me where actual SF matchups said that.Jordan's matchups at SG said that "if Jordan didn't want you to score, you didn't score".. Accordingly, show me where Glenn Robinson, Mashburn, Dominique or other SF's say stuff like that about Pippen.The reality is that every SF destroyed Pippen.The only people that speak the common empty sayings about Pippen's defense are the
Ok so now we are at the point where only SF knows what Defense is but not Kobe or Thomas …ok buddy .
And again show me where anyone says is pippen was a poor defender then ?
Should be easy to find …..
Ok so now we are at the point where only SF knows what Defense is but not Kobe or Thomas …ok buddy .
And again show me where anyone says is pippen was a poor defender then ?
Should be easy to find …..
I never claimed that Pippen was a bad defender.. I said he was a vastly overrated one.
The evidence of Pippen being an overrated defender is the opposing SF's that routinely destroyed him and also Pippen never locking anyone down as the primary defender.. Pippen also never gave the Bulls superior defenses - the Bulls had worse defensive ranking than 5 of 6 ECF and Finals opponents during the 1st three-peat (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks).
Again, scoring matters because it's the "star" category, so players that can carry the "star" category require less star help - this gives GM's room to sign good defenders or role players.. Otoh, ball-dominators like Lebron are too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams - this inability to carry the "star" category requires more star help and prevents GM's from finding defenders..
Accordingly, Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his aforementioned "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.... Since Lebron can't carry the scoring load, he can't win with Pippen, Klay, Middleton, Lowry, Terry, or other secondary producers that weren't "franchise players" like Wade/AD/Luka/Bosh/Love/Kyrie.. Lebron needed to join opposing franchise players to win, which makes him inferior to a lot of guys that have comparable ring counts.
It's Hali
.
.
.
The doctrine stands
"DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) AND THE 1ST OPTION FOR THAT RUN:
1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)......... DURANT
2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............. SHAQ
3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN
4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)............. TATUM
5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).......... JOKIC
6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN
7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ
8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN
"DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) AND THEIR 1ST OPTION:
1. Chicago Bulls....................... JORDAN
2. San Antonio Spurs.............. DUNCAN
3. Los Angeles Lakers............. SHAQ
4. Golden State Warriors........ CURRY
PROVEN BASKETBALL FACT:
Since possession-tracking began in 1997, bigs or jumpshooters were required at 1st option for 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss or less per round for their title run (4 losses max), and 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5 years (i.e. 3 in 5).. So that's 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) where primary ball-handlers were NOT the 1st option in favor of bigs or jumpshooters.. Since the best bigs and jumpshooters produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there - i.e. since primary ball-handlers cannot be 1st option for the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can.
The issue is that high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron or SGA score large amounts without being assisted by teammates (low assisted rates), so they have a large volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles crater teammates' assets, so the team has low assist rankings over time..
Ultimately, since every dynasty uses a ball movement system that requires ELITE off-ball players, this precludes the weaker ball movement of ball-dominators from ever producing a dynasty or dominant champion (the best basketball).
Drexler is now a role player.
Talk about how easy MJ had it. 2nd Championship was against a team that was led by a role player.
Drexler is now a role player.
Talk about how easy MJ had it. 2nd Championship was against a team that was led by a role player.
A role player is someone that is mostly a dunker and can't achieve 15 ppg outside the system, while the system allows them to get 15-20 points of automatic buckets and dunks.. Role players are unnoticed with zero accountability/responsibility for wins, losses or franchise success.
Obviously, the previous paragraph describes Pippen, while Drexler was a franchise player with elite/dominant peak capability and therefore the weight/expectation of an entire city to lead Portland to a title.
Night and day.
So, you agree that Pippen match Drexler in that series.
Like how you say Kyrie matched Curry.
The first few pages of this thread were quite good
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRN...
The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link above) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown here:
By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire 2015 Finals:
"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_...
So not only is Lebron not doubled, but he sucks against double-teams (Cavs were 2-18 for the series).
So, you agree that Pippen match Drexler in that series.
Like how you say Kyrie matched Curry.
Kyrie averaged 5 more than Curry and closed, while Pippen averaged 4 less and never closed... That's a 9 point gap that you're saying is equal.. That's how much you're reaching.. That's how much you were wrong about Lebron and overrate him.
Regarding role players, a role player might have a Finals peak of 15-21 system points against zero attention, which is still 4 points below an underperforming Drexler.. Pippen's best is below a bed-wetting Drexler.
Unlike Pippen's SF matchups that routinely torched him, all guards underperformed against MJ... It took too much energy to defend Jordan, which took away from opponents' offense.. Unfortunately for the Blazers, the normally dominant Terry Porter wasn't immune from this dynamic.. He had just dominated Stockton with 26/4/8 and 53% threes (6 attempts) in the WCF, but then cratered to 16 on horrible efficiency against MJ.
Defending Jordan wore teams out and left them with less capacity for offense, and the need for bigs to double-team Jordan destroys the team's defensive rebounding, as Jeff Van Gundy explains here... That's how fossil Rodman survived on the Bulls and in the 96' Finals - Jordan was doubled on 50% of possessions, and that was WITH payton on him (previous post).
Kyrie averaged 5 more than Curry and closed, while Pippen averaged 4 less and never closed... That's a 9 point gap that you're saying is equal.. That's how much you're reaching.. That's how much you were wrong about Lebron and overrate him.
and yet when they win 11 rings , those system player averaging 15-16 ppg, brick layer and cant shoot a FT are amazing for you and rank #2 all time....
but u like him so its ok, its different....
I mean it was a real argument back then.
After that point LeBron has probably had a Top 5 All time career excluding everything he did before that.
3 Championships, 6 top 4 MVP finishes, 12 All NBA selections, beating the GOAT team and the list goes on.
Jordan said the second best player on the '92 Dream Team version was Pippen. I think he meant it. Magic and Bird were old by then, of course. Most of the others had weaknesses. Jordan was really the only super player on that team. Pip underrated. Says Mike.
I mean it was a real argument back then.After that point LeBron has probably had a Top 5 All time career excluding everything he did before that. 3 Championships, 6 top 4 MVP finishes, 12 All NBA selections, beating the GOAT team and the list goes on.
Lebron's losses are so many and so severe, that it more than offsets the little winning that he did... Every ring can be countered by threefold by chokes, upset losses, bed-wettings, 1st Round losses with AD or Luka, or lottery in prime (19').
These are all egregious things that reinforce the reality that even the worst team in the league wins about 10 games, i.e. Lebron's few wins are a product of playing so long and with every star possible - even a broken clock is right twice a day.. Ultimately, he has losing records with every type of good roster, such as preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and all-star teammates (4-8).
People say he won with 3 teams but he lost with more different teams in the Finals and more star teammates than anyone in history.. He was also upset with more different teams, or record losses with more different teams, or swept with more different teams..
Secondly, Lebron lost twice as an OKC-level favorite in 2009 and 2010, which forced him to team up with his opponents and opposing franchise players - so he never "ruled the East" - he was historically-embarrassed twice and forced to team up with opponents thereafter... Infact, he teamed up with MULTIPLE opposing franchise players.. This nullifies the little winning that he did, and it magnifies his record of weak teams and mostly losing in spite of these team-ups...
Thirdly, history shows that a sidekick outplaying the league MVP is unprecedented, along with 6 straight preseason favorites (the previous high is 3)... So both Lebron and KD enjoyed unprecedented advantages, but Lebron's lasted twice as long (11-16' vs 17-19').
Jordan said the second best player on the '92 Dream Team version was Pippen. I think he meant it. Magic and Bird were old by then, of course. Most of the others had weaknesses. Jordan was really the only super player on that team. Pip underrated. Says Mike.
That's like when everyone praises the ******ed kid.. "You're the BEST"
type of thing.
the people who are actually the best nod their head in agreement and play along
Cumbaya my lord .. Cumbayaaaa
It meant exactly zero and virtually everyone knew what MJ was doing there, even fans
Again, show me where his SF matchups praised him.. (on either end of the floor).. Show me where Worthy or Dominique say Pippen was a handful.. lol.. I laugh as I write that... Pip couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and SF's scored on him at will... they scored like he wasn't even there.. literally.. that's how worthy scored on him .. like he was invisible
Duncan would've won with Baron Davis & Jamal Crawford in place of Parker/Ginobil, so it's backwards to say that duncan NEEDED parker to win, when it's the secondary producers like Parker or Klay that needed a top 10 goat to win..
Accordingly, secondary producers like Klay or Parker are incredibly lucky to land next to a top 10 goat and punch their ticket, since top 10 guys don't grow on trees and come along once or twice per era... Otoh, secondary producers that barely average 20 ppg like pippen, klay, etc are quite common... Accordingly, why would a rare top 10 goat that won with secondary producers "need" them, when they're everywhere and quite common?...
I'm sure Giannis would've won with any solid-scoring forward - it didn't have to be Middleton... Dirk could've developed chemistry with any solid SG - it didn't have to be Terry... Otoh, Terry needed a goat-level run from a goat like Dirk to win.. So the media and fans state things backwards (and we know why and when it started).
.
.
Regular Season
Playoffs
The 2015 Warriors were +2800 in preseason odds, so no one thought they had a good roster, and they had a sidekick that produced less than Jeff Hornacek.
Yet Curry carried them to 67 and 73 wins by being the unanimous MVP.
Curry simply carried those bums to 70 wins, but he gets no credit because today's low intelligence generation thinks that 70 wins = stacked, regardless of the initial expectation, on-paper talent or chemistry.
Curry's Warriors had a sufficient deficit in roster talent that adding KD merely made things more comparable to the Cavs - the Cavs were still the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team).. Lebron's teams set the record with 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', so it took KD's Warriors to break the streak.
Ultimately, no one expected the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the MVP, or the suspension of Draymond.. It's common consensus that the Warriors would've won in 5 without the suspension.
Jordan said the second best player on the '92 Dream Team version was Pippen. I think he meant it. Magic and Bird were old by then, of course. Most of the others had weaknesses. Jordan was really the only super player on that team. Pip underrated. Says Mike.
The best player on the dream team was Charles Barkley. Pippen had a case for being 2nd or maybe Karl Malone. Then maybe Chris Mullin, Patrick Ewing, Clyde Drexler, David Robinson, and Magic Johnson. Jordan was legitimately maybe the worst regular on the team if you go by the stats. His shooting percentages were terrible across the board and he led the team in turnovers.
