Dealer mucks player's up card in stud
Dealer mucked the up card. Player still had the hole cards in Stud 8. Player and others said it was Tc, but floor came and went through muck and said he couldn't find the card and the hand was dead. Player was the kill, so automatically in since won the whole pot the last hand for over 8 big bets. So probably didn't have much with a T up, which is one of the worst cards. I know when the dealer mucks hole cards in holdem, they are not retrievable, but how could an up card not be retrievable?
13 Replies
Um, I guess it could not be retrievable if the floor couldn't find it in the muck.
I don't think I ever saw a dealer muck an upcard on 3rd street. Seems like everything was handled the best it could have been after the dealer mistake though. What else could they have done? Maybe the players remembered the card wrong.
Dealer mucked the up card. Player still had the hole cards in Stud 8. Player and others said it was Tc, but floor came and went through muck and said he couldn't find the card and the hand was dead. Player was the kill, so automatically in since won the whole pot the last hand for over 8 big bets. So probably didn't have much with a T up, which is one of the worst cards. I know
A rule of thumb I try to follow: never call out the specific suit of an exposed card unless I'm 1000% certain. "It was a black 10" rather than "it was the 10c" might have yielded a different result when the floor looked.
Once the specific card is not found, though, the player doesn't have the proper number of cards for the game being played. Letter of the law says hand is dead.
If it was more of a dealer error than a player not protecting their hand situation, I'd probably be okay with letting the player continue in the hand 1 card short. But that would be an exception and shouldn't be expected. They're definitely not getting a replacement card.
Um, I guess it could not be retrievable if the floor couldn't find it in the muck.
I don't think I ever saw a dealer muck an upcard on 3rd street. Seems like everything was handled the best it could have been after the dealer mistake though. What else could they have done? Maybe the players remembered the card wrong.
Why not at least try to identify on from camera. Other than the time, what is the cost. Any reasonable recent video technology should be able to id they card.
A rule of thumb I try to follow: never call out the specific suit of an exposed card unless I'm 1000% certain. "It was a black 10" rather than "it was the 10c" might have yielded a different result when the floor looked. Once the specific card is not found, though, the player doesn't have the proper number of cards for the game being played. Letter of the law says hand is dead.
There are or at least to be room(s) that allowed playing short a card in HE. Could win a hand with only one card.
Why not at least try to identify on from camera. Other than the time, what is the cost. Any reasonable recent video technology should be able to id they card.
I didn't think of that. No idea how long it would take or if most cameras are good enough to pick that up.
Years ago I read here that cameras could not normally be used to identify up cards.
I didn't think of that. No idea how long it would take or if most cameras are good enough to pick that up.
Years ago I read here that cameras could not normally be used to identify up cards.
Have heard that before. But I know of one time for certain they did id a tabled then flipped back over hand. I suspect with fully digital setup it isn’t an issue anymore.
I’ve seen this situation come up once back when I played a lot of stud (my up card was mucked and it was retrieved). My understanding based on the floor ruling and I believe it’s in Roberts Rules also is that upcards in stud are considered protected (since you can’t protect them with a chip like hole cards). So your hand can’t be killed by a dealer mucking one or all of your up cards in stud. If somehow they couldn’t be retrieved (seems very unlikely as the camera could identify them) the worst case would be you having anything you put into the pot returned to you is my guess.
I’ve seen this situation come up once back when I played a lot of stud (my up card was mucked and it was retrieved). My understanding based on the floor ruling and I believe it’s in Roberts Rules also is that upcards in stud are considered protected (since you can’t protect them with a chip like hole cards). So your hand can’t be killed by a dealer mucking one or all of your
Thought the fix was to be able to declare all in. But stud was oh so long ago for me. Would not even try it today.
Thought the fix was to be able to declare all in. But stud was oh so long ago for me. Would not even try it today.
That's the fix for if one person's final down card is turned up, or possibly other anomalies on the last card.
I can't imagine that being done on the first round of betting.
That's the fix for if one person's final down card is turned up, or possibly other anomalies on the last card.
I can't imagine that being done on the first round of betting.
Makes sense. As noted stud far too long ago and far to brief.
Why not at least try to identify on from camera. Other than the time, what is the cost. Any reasonable recent video technology should be able to id they card.
You are not wrong from a player perspective. Absolutely.
However from the casinos perspective it is a pain in the ass. Generally not ideal. We all think it is really easy for a casino to check the tapes. It isn't. At minimum it requires having a very busy, senior employee leave the floor for a period of time to review the film. It also requires stopping the action on the game in question.
From a practical standpoint, this means having the dealer call the floor who will them end up going to the shift manager who will then go in back, call surveillance, get access to a particular feed, spend a few minutes reviewing tape, making sure, and then coming out and making a ruling. The whole time no action is taking place on that table and the shift manager (or high level supervisor) is not on the floor doing the rest of their job.
Don't get me wrong, the fairness part of me wants to spend the time to get this right. Absolutely. However the other part of me recognizes that we are arguing over one big blind as the maximum punishment and goes are we going to do all that over one big blind?
I see both sides and want both to win, but I realize that reality sometimes collides.
Might be a PITA but it is the exact kind of pain I am paying for. I could obviously support players upset with the delay, but for the house it truly is a service the players are literally paying for.
Also, the casinos I have witnessed, checking cameras is much easier than your description. What I have seen for years is some one in the poker room is authorized to review video and they don’t need to leave ro9m to do so. Call security, provide table number, explain what is needed, security clips proper camera shot(s) of the request. Shares clip(s) to computer screen in the room (multiple ways to do this).
No tape needed, no need in this case to talk with security more than 30 sec, why security gets clips, person continues other tasks, few seconds (in this case) to review (either can or can’t id cards).
If the $ become the point, fine but you better have a hard line for how little is too little. I would also contend house choosing to not review because amount is too small then should also refund to player the amount.
I certainly see zero reason for house to feel this is a pain esp when it is purely a house error.
If they were still using physical VHS tapes I'm sure it would be a pain, but I can't imagine a casino in 2025 using VHS tapes.
