Early stages live $2500 AA open and only four callers

Interesting spot. In a deep stack $2500, I think I fire out a very small bet (could check though) and see what develops. If I run into a lot of resistance or get multiple callers after that bet, I'm slowing down. I think the 5-way action is going to protect that small bet, so that if someone does make a play, it's very likely to be an 8x hand. If I bet and get two plus callers, I'm going to check the turn -- if it's bet by someone else, I will need to evaluate -- probably will see another card against only one player and a small bet. If I bet and get only once caller, I will c/c if OOP, and b/f if IP. Not sure this is best, but I think that's how I would play it.

Preflop is just horrible. Make it 4 or 5 xBB. Would do the same with most hands I would open.

If multiway spots are so common early in these tourneys, why are you only opening 2.5x pre?

I think I'm betting flop for the reasons you mention but mentally preparing to lose this hand. Hoping for a favorable runout and cheap showdown.

Yeh might as well raise to 4-5x if everyone is calling anyways - could get 25bb in the pot instead of 12. I would bet 5 ways here - you're probably just getting 1 street from PP's unless someone has TT/JJ. I think early on in a tournament you're better off playing low variance/safe as chips do not matter as much as mid-late game.

My guess is that if we check the flop it will check behind us even if somebody has an 8. That's what usually happens. It will make it a little cheaper for us especially if one of the blinds has an 8. They will lead out turn and river and I typically call because I under repped the hand (I did this in the WSOP Senior event on a 234 flop and paid off turn and river bets to A5 --- now I should have folded to the river bet but I didn't).

Another option is to bet about 3.5 bb's. But I do think we will get called by all PP's, gutters, and straight draws which isn't really a bad thing. Though possibly two overcards as well especially with BDFD.

The last option is bet about 8 bb's. Here the problem is we are making it a huge pot and if somebody has an 8 or hits a straight we will be in a very tough turn and/or river situation. Here I likely fold to two large bets (or a flop raise and a huge turn bet). And we may have the winning hand.

I typically raise pre-flop to 3x when most players have over 100 bb's (and I do too) but here it is borderline and I don't hate the 2.5x sizing. Not that you wouldn't have had 4 callers...

I'm usually checking here with AA and betting with hands like TT and JJ that need more protection.

If it checks through and someone catches something like a K,Q or J that's a good thing as it allows us to extract value later in the hand.

Checking also allows us to observe more of the action before committing chips to evaluate whether anyone has trips. For example if the big blind leads turn we can go into call down mode. Or on the flop if it goes something like button bet followed by big blind raise we can even consider folding right away.

Think checking everything is pretty good here, though if we are sure everyone will play honest enough that they only raise 8x and only call anything else then 40%ish could be good too

Assess the folllowing mate:

• protection needs
  
• blocker effects
  

Checking is probably good especially with a hand you don't need protection for. Betting small may be OK. The problem with betting is opening up a check-raise situation where as the pot exponentially builds it's less likely your hand is good.

I mean, I get your thinking, but I don't think check-raising with full range vs. a 5-way C-bet could be good. Some with blockers or backup outs, okay. Even then, I'd be careful - you're not getting a flop fold and you'll have to be prepared to blast off three streets to win the pot. It's a high-variance parlay you're making, to be able to build the pot and then take it away.

(I may be influenced by trying something like this at the WSOP main last year and it didn't work.)

Readless, Bet w/e small size that won't lead to 4 calls, and plan to bet 3 streets targeting worse pps, and expect people to turn their hands basically face up when you're beat. If everyone folds is that even bad, I would be pretty happy. If you have to fold and lose 5-10bbs total that's not that bad who cares if you have AA.

Why check? to balance vs 4 random live ppl who you are gonna play 200 total hands against in your entire life.

Would GTO even want to check AA 5 way vs 4 other GTO players. Hu sure, 3way sure but 5way? Maybe if you're forced to range check or something. I imagine it would have to always be a small linear bet w/ some traps and infinite checks into potentially a more polar strat on turn.

Going back over this hand, this is probably closest to correct. I don't think we want to build a big pot because we're not getting in a ton of money against a worse hand, we don't need protection (I'd bet 99-JJ), and betting opens up the possibility of getting in deep **** against an 8.

I like where Eggs is going with this

This is an event I’ve played many times and multi-way spots are standard early. The hand was one I saw on a live stream of the feature table - early stages with around 60bb in BB and a cpl of late positions so I didn’t mind the smaller sizing. Whether you open 2bb, 2.5bb, 3bb I’ve found it’s generally inelastic in this event, with only 4-5bb having any impact on ranges.

Protection requirements are minimal. There are some connectors that come into play with 5 6 9 T turns but the effect is twofold - some connectors get there with a straight but other parts of the range pick up draws they can get stubborn or even aggressive with. By betting AA on the flop, imho we’re taking the wrong parts of our opponent range to the turn and river.

Blocker effects are also important. We’ve skewed opponent ranges away from Ax towards paint pp and connectors. That leaves it quite likely that one or more opponents will turn a pair (hopefully top pair) if we let them.

The discussion re TT JJ is also important as we would bet these hands for protection - but AA KK might be better in our checking range, with some other sc hands balancing TT JJ.

My main objective with this hand is getting as much value as we can, unless someone turns 8x face up on the river.

Anyways, thanks for indulging. Thought it was an interesting hand with such minimal protection required, and one of those rare spots where checking might be the correct path to max value.

Yeah good summary of a lot of considerations. This is kind of the classic "way ahead, way behind" spot. We want to maximize our winnings when we're ahead while simultaneously limiting the damage when we're behind, which is a bit of a balancing act.

Nice thread

Also with TT or JJ you are more likely to cooler a straight when you hit your boat on the turn, maybe another reason to bet a little bit more with those hands ?

In my online 100bb deep cash game I would check range on this flop vs 2 opponents, so vs 4... But it might be incorrect + I don't know if it translates to tournaments.

check call or check raise? what if J falls ott?

Multiway it’s tough, but checking is asking for trouble. I’d size down and keep all the worse hands in.

Taking it down on the flop is an excellent result. You rarely have trips, so someone could make a play on you.

Are you suggesting that it's better to bet the flop for this reason?

Betting the flop doesn't negate anyone's ability to make a play. It just speeds up the inflection point. You're actually giving the other players more leverage by reopening the action for players who already checked, enabling them to potentially check-raise you.

With a hand as strong as AA you're unlikely to fold to one aggressive action. You're more worried about aggression over multiple streets (or massive over bets).

Like let's compare the options if BB decides to rep an 8.

Option 1: We bet small on the flop, other players all fold and BB check raises. We call. Turn is a 2 and BB bets again. Now we're in a difficult spot with BB threatening our entire stack with the likelihood of a river all-in bet if we call turn.

Option 2: We check flop, and it checks through. BB probes turn. We call and everyone else folds. Now if BB bets big on the river we at least know exactly what we're facing and can get to showdown immediately if we call.

How is it "asking for trouble"?

Multiway this deep I’d just check back. Board smashes the limp-along ranges and you’re not getting called light by worse when 4 others see a flop. Let someone stab, keep the pot small, and re-eval turns. Betting here just bloats it with no real protection needed.