A Missed Small Blind Cost Three
MGM Springfield Friday Night
1/2
Hero wins a big pot in the BB. Hero stands up and decides to skip his SB. Hero sits down for his BTN and sees the “Missed Small Blind” chip. Hero puts in one dollar. Dealer says, no it’s three dollars. I said, I just played the BB and won the hand. Do I have to pay the BB twice? He said, no “it’s three to buy the button.” I protested that I already paid the big blind but let it go rather than slow down the game.
Is this a dealer mistake?
If you care why you would ever skip a small blind: In the previous hand, I checked in the BB five-way. Trying not to go broke in a limped pot, I sweated out a scoop. I wanted to skip my SB because I felt myself going on tilt. In the SB, I 3b 4x or fold. Because in this game raises often goes multiway, the thought of back-to-back hands oop for big pots… #
20 Replies
You have other things to worry about more than this issue if you're going on tilt after winning a big pot.
House rules will apply. In this case, there is a logic behind the ruling. It is more advantageous to skip the small blind and pay it on the button. The rule helps take that advantage away.
I am impressed that sitting one hand takes your tilt away. I can't get rid of tilt that easily.
It’s not really tilt, more that after a row of tough hands, I need a small break to cognitively refocus.
So if you want to skip the SB, it’s better just to post and fold blind, right?
Yes, fortunately you can always fold the SB, not necessarily so with the BB 😉
Paying only one for button, skipping the SB could be an advantage, so they can't allow it. Jumping from worst to best position. Most probably for securing the flow of the game though. Always paying three for the button makes the math surely favoring paying and playing the BB and SB.
In many rooms you can't post the SB on the BUT.
Say you're in seat 5.
Hand 1: 3 is BUT, 4 is SB, you were BB. You won this hand.
Hand 2: 4 is BUT, you were SB but missed, 6 is BB. There is a "dead SB" this hand, only one blind.
Hand 3: dead button, 4 is BUT again, 6 is SB, 7 is BB.
Generally speaking, rooms won't let you take the BUT and post your SB on it, either live or dead. Sometimes it is allowed, especially in NL games. It is almost never allowed in limit games.
What you can do is Buy the Button. So it would be:
Hand 3a: dead button, 4 is BUT again, you in 5 BTB and are BB and post dead small
Hand 4a: 5 is BUT, 6 is SB, 7 is BB
The dealer should have done a better job of explaining that in this situation you can only BTB, or else wait a hand and come in after the button passes by paying your SB dead, or just wait for your natural BB to come around again.
Hand 4: 6 is BUT, 7 is SB, 8 is BB, you post dead SB in the CO.
Yes, that's standard in many rooms. You can usually wait one hand and pay SB (sometimes live, usually dead) after the button has passed. Other rooms have different methods, such as you can post SB on the button, or the button stays and you have a BB, SB, SB, button.
Being able to post the SB from the button is problematic because you get people skipping their SB on purpose so they can pay it on their button instead.
MGM Springfield Friday Night1/2Hero wins a big pot in the BB. Hero stands up and decides to skip his SB. Hero sits down for his BTN and sees the “Missed Small Blind” chip. Hero puts in one dollar. Dealer says, no it’s three dollars. I said, I just played the BB and won the hand. Do I have to pay the BB twice? He said, no “it’s three to buy the button.” I protested that I alrea
IF the dealer allowed button to move to you and you only post SB on the button, why wouldn't everyone do it every round? Play the BB, sit out, play the SB on the btn in position. Never putting money into the pot in the worst post flop position. Heck, if allowed, I would probably btn staddle to double the stakes with ultimate position.
First, buying button normally happens when you are not yet the button. I.e. you are in the position that would normally be the SB. Obv. this happens when you miss the BB and would have been SB if you had not missed the BB.
The rooms I play in, at least those using "dead button", most would not allow you to buy button for any price. These rooms don't allow posting SB on the button (which is what you attempted to do.) You would have to sit out or MAYBE allow you to do a button straddle on the button.
Some dead button rooms (and I believe this is the actual correct way), would not advance the button and they would allow you to buy the button. BUT that means you would have to post BB/SB (otherwise where would the BB be since dead button games don't allow a SB/SB/BB situation.) This is exactly what the dealer insisted in your case? Or was he advancing butting and letting you buy the button
If room uses a moving button, I am not sure, but I believe it goes this way.
You play bb/win (everything is normal)
You sit out, btn is to your right, two BB to left
You come back, btn skips over you, btn post SB on btn, you post SB behind btn, third SB in normal position (was BB prior hand).
It’s not really tilt, more that after a row of tough hands, I need a small break to cognitively refocus.
So if you want to skip the SB, it’s better just to post and fold blind, right?
If you need a small break then you need a small break. Whether you are the SB or the BTN. If you can't play for whatever reason then definitely walk away from the table. I have never seen this happen after a person won a hand, and I have never done it, but each person is different.
The thing to understand is you might need more than a one hand break. So paying the SB is not worth it. To me.
IF the dealer allowed button to move to you and you only post SB on the button, why wouldn't everyone do it every round? Play the BB, sit out, play the SB on the btn in position. Never putting money into the pot in the worst post flop position. Heck, if allowed, I would probably btn staddle to double the stakes with ultimate position.
I find in cash games that people may limp in. So playing the SB can be very profitable. I prefer to play the SB than to post the SB when I have the BTN.
I have played in some places in CA that have allowed that to happen. Where you can skip the SB and post on the BTN. But nobody does it frequently because then the house would get skeptical and potentially ban the player or change the rule.
Oddly at the WSOP in cash games they do allow you to straddle the BTN. It is 8 handed but the other day we all started doing it. The players that didn't want to left the game or just never did it (and were playing at a disadvantage).
forward moving button rule solves this. button freezes just make everything weird even if it’s not aesthetic to post on/behind the button.
also in LA most casinos say “miss one miss both” so you would have to pay a full set of blinds in that situation.
personally not a fan of you sitting out the next hand after winning a hand. if you were going to jump in on the button anyway you might as well fold without looking at your cards, there’s literally no benefit you’re getting to folding sb and then posting next hand anyway.
Hero never gets the BTN after missing sb. You can come in for 1 next hand.
I typically tell dealers to post my blind or blinds if I get up, precisely because the BTN can be so valuable. Even if I don't make it back I'm rarely losing out.
Hero never gets the BTN after missing sb. You can come in for 1 next hand.
I typically tell dealers to post my blind or blinds if I get up, precisely because the BTN can be so valuable. Even if I don't make it back I'm rarely losing out.
I've never heard of a room that will allow that.
Where have you played? You've really never seen anyone post a small blind behind the button?
I've played in at least 30 different rooms and I don't remember this ever being the case. Of course it may not have come up in the places I only played once or twice.
So then you have never seen anyone buy the button? As in, miss BB, and come in next handposting bb and a dead sb.
Also never seen someone miss sb, then a dead button hand, then post sb behind the button?
So then you have never seen anyone buy the button? As in, miss BB, and come in next handposting bb and a dead sb.
Also never seen someone miss sb, then a dead button hand, then post sb behind the button?
Buying the button you are paying all the blinds....
For your second one -- everywhere I've played you would post the sb dead and bb live behind the button there. There's a "missed blind" button, but no "missed sb button", they are treated the same.
Buying the button you are paying all the blinds....
For your second one -- everywhere I've played you would post the sb dead and bb live behind the button there. There's a "missed blind" button, but no "missed sb button", they are treated the same.
1. But you first must miss the bb. You did not say that all blinds must be paid. Ofc you must pay both blinds, at least. That was never at issue.
You said if you miss 1 blind, you miss them all. If you miss the bb and buy the btn, did you miss the sb? When you miss the bb, does the dealer give you a missed blind button?
Logic seems to imply, you missed a blind. It says so right there on the button they gave you and you now toss in when you post. QED.
2. Not sure where you play but I have never seen or played in a room where missing a SB then had to post both. I do know that at the CET and MGM rooms in Vegas you only need post SB.
As to button labels I have seen all three: missed blind, missed big blind, missed small blind. Most room have two out of three. I have seen a few rooms with only missed blind button. In these rooms at push, departing dealer tells incoming if the button was only for SB.
1. But you first must miss the bb. You did not say that all blinds must be paid. Ofc you must pay both blinds, at least. That was never at issue. You said if you miss 1 blind, you miss them all. If you miss the bb and buy the btn, did you miss the sb? When you miss the bb, does the dealer give you a missed blind button?Logic seems to imply, you missed a blind. It says so right
I don't understand at all what you are trying to say here. If someone "buys the button" they do have to pay both blinds, and have the additional punishment of having the small blind be dead money, despite not having yet missed the small blind. This is the only instance where "if you miss one, you missed both" would apply in all rooms.
I don't understand at all what you are trying to say here. If someone "buys the button" they do have to pay both blinds, and have the additional punishment of having the small blind be dead money, despite not having yet missed the small blind. This is the only instance where "if you miss one, you missed both" would apply in all rooms.
Kato actually claimed the opposite. He claimed that by buying the button no blinds were missed.
I think we all agree that both blinds at a min are always paid to play. But paying blinds and missing hands are different. Paying both the SB and BB to buy the button doesn’t mean you did not miss the bb hand. You buy the btn hand. You can’t buy back the bb hand you missed
I wanted to skip my SB because I felt myself going on tilt. In the SB, I 3b 4x or fold. Because in this game raises often goes multiway, the thought of back-to-back hands oop for big pots… #
If that was your intention next time you can just post your SB and muck the hand without looking at it (I mean its only $1, which you would need to post as a dead SB to come back in regardless). Or decide beforehand that you are only playing if you get JJ+/AK
Kato actually claimed the opposite. He claimed that by buying the button no blinds were missed.
I think we all agree that both blinds at a min are always paid to play. But paying blinds and missing hands are different. Paying both the SB and BB to buy the button doesn’t mean you did not miss the bb hand. You buy the btn hand. You can’t buy back the bb hand you missed
Yes, and he's talking about missing blinds, not missing hands. Of course you can't buy back a hand you missed, that doesn't make sense and I don't know why you seem to think he made that claim.
I think he's saying that if you miss the small blind, you can't just post it behind (like is possible everywhere I've played much), but instead you have to post a live big blind and a dead small blind behind the button, just as if you had missed both. Or if you miss the big blind, but haven't yet- actually missed the small blind, because you returned to the game immediately, you now still have to post a live big blind and dead small blind, but at least you get the benefit of having the button on the following hand. This is the way it is handled anywhere I've played which allows player to "buy the button".
