I hate playing out of position

Just check preflop.

You need to bet a lot bigger on this flop or even go for a check-raise if you're going to play it this way. And even bigger on the turn. You need to be shutting down the hand before bad cards come, not betting 40% twice and hoping it works out.

But beyond specific advice, let's talk conceptually. What is your goal with the bets you made and the line you took?

Agreed you should just check back preflop. No need to bloat the pot OOP. The hand plays a lot easier if you check back then start the flop action with a check and go from there.

I agree with Nath that the pre-flop raise size should be bigger. My choice at this level would be around 8400. This is so we get both players to fold more often.

But there is no way I do this with JTs OOP. In position I sometimes call and I sometimes raise based on the players who limped and the players still left to act as well as what I have shown that i did this with before.

The flop bet size for me is OK. But the turn should be more like 21,000. If we don't get a fold I would not be betting the river and debate calling based on the size of the bet and the river card. In this case I would likely just check/fold.

It's probably not the optimal line (for starters, I wouldn't be raising preflop in this spot ever), but if you raise big preflop and get a call, I think potting the flop and shoving the turn is better than this.

Preflop: I like to punish limpers, and there is a good deal of limping in this population. And I have a hand that can flop really well if I get called.

Flop: This is a pretty good flop all things considered. I have a big range advantage and it's a very static flop. I don't see any reason to bet big on this flop, and I don't see why I would go for a x/r.

Turn: I think this was where I made a clear mistake. The turn card has made the board much more dynamic and is good for villain's range. I think I should have sized up here.

River: I wasn't sure what to do here. I didn't want to check and face a big bet/shove, so I went with a blocker/thin value bet. It was stupid in hindsight because the Ace on the river either hits his Ax combos or will cause him to fold out all his marginal pairs I already beat. Plus it hits some 4x combos (44, 54s).

I would still size up the flop. Ten high is more dynamic than it may look, because any J/Q/K is bad for you, and you don't have any backdoor flush draw equity. That, and I'm inclined to end the hand sooner being OOP rather than giving my opponent a price they can float light with and take away the pot on the turn on a bad card for me.

I wasn't as concerned with equity denial because I don't see villain limping behind with many overcard combos. His range is going to be made up almost entirely of A2s-ATs, 22-TT, and some of those low-med suited connectors people like to limp. The flop is pretty bad for that range.

Why don't you see him overlimping Broadway hands on the button?

Because he shouldn't be, and I hadn't seen this particular player limp frequently so I had no reason to believe he would limp Broadway hands. And I block some of the ones he might limp in this spot (QJs, KJs).

Why do you want to punish limpers? Would you prefer to get raised? In a tournament I literally never raise in the BB when limped to me. Seeing a flop for free is 90% of the time an optimal outcome. If I do happen to have AA or KK, it's well disguised and I'm more likely to get paid off.

1) The benefit of taking down the pot preflop if they fold

2) If they call, I am playing with the range advantage against more defined capped ranges

Checking preflop brings neither of these benefits. It just makes it easier and cheaper to play OOP.

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Checking preflop does bring the benefit of not having to play OOP in an inflated pot with a hand that's difficult to comfortably stack off with unless you flop huge, though.

True, although that could happen any time you raise a limper regardless of position. It shouldn't deter you from raising.

[quote]You also tend to fold out hands you're in good shape against like T9s, T8s, and isolate yourself against the stronger parts of their ranges./[quote]
Would this not be offset by the benefit of folding out better hands and playing a hand that flops really well against those strong ranges? Part of the reason playing in limped pots is so frustrating is because ranges are so wide and undefined.

I think you make valid points, and I'm not going to die on the hill that raising was definitely the right play here. I can definitely see the argument for not raising with this particular hand because it plays so well multiway and against wide ranges.

I think you can make a case either way. It likely depends on what the specific limpers are doing since we're pretty much playing exploitatively in these sorts of spots. Mainly I've just found that it's easier to play when you check it back.

Also I don't think this hand necessarily benefits from lowering the stack to pot ratio. JTs is great when you're deep, make a straight and cooler two pair or whatever. It's really not great for making top pair at shallower SPRs as we'll end up being dominated a lot when the money goes in. Now if we had a hand like AQo it's pretty much the exact opposite and I would raise it every time in this spot.

Just some more stuff to think about.

Yeah, but when you have a hand with strong postflop playability, that's a much worse result than when you have something like an offsuit big ace.

Which better hands are you trying to fold out? The best hands to fold out here would be dominating Broadway hands, and you're certain the button is never overlimping those. (I don't really think you're getting many folds at all from the button with your raise when you're this deep, unless he's limping incredibly wide. Anything reasonable he could limp, he's deep enough to see a flop with position.)

I think the bolded sentence is pretty revealing. It suggests to me your concern was less "What is the best play?" and more "What is the play that would make the hand less frustrating for me?'" Sometimes the best play can put you in more difficult situations. It seems like you raised because you were frustrated with all the limping and wanted to take the pot down, but that's not the best motivation for making a play, and it's not the best play with this specific hand, which is happy to go to a flop and can flop huge and cooler people.

Good point about the SPR

True

I guess I'm thinking mostly weak Ax. But you're probably right that he's going to be calling with any suited Ax, so it's really just a small number of offsuit Aces he might have limped.

I don't agree, I was just pointing it out as a benefit of raising in limped pots. But I wasn't raising because my primary motivation was to avoid an uncomfortable spot postflop.

Whats the point of the river bet? Are you bluffing or value betting?

You think he's calling the whole way with Ax to fold it to 40% pot on the river once it turns into top pair? That seems extremely optimistic.

Quoting from an earlier response of mine: