NOT shoving ATC from SB
My contrarian thought is that this spot is overexploited by BB shove-callers so I tend to pass on mediocre hands like 95o and I’d rather shove couple rounds later with JTo etc. is this a mistake?
11 Replies
My contention is- since you’re gonna get called so widely, with A,K,Q high, then why expose yourself with shoving trash?
I don't think there's many spots where you're supposed to shove 100% of hands. Given you've provided so little information, it's hard to determine what kind of situations you're talking about.
Sure. Let me clarify. These hands I’d pass on, regardless of the small stack. Is this a mistake?
I think your Nash chart at 8 bb's effective stack is not really disagreeing with you. Because the color is light-ish the chart is saying don't jam all the time (if I am right).
Personally I would jam 54s and 85s with 8 bb's effective stack.
For me though there is a difference to having 8 bb's and the BB having 8 bb's. I think I jam lighter when I am the one with 8 bb's. I probably don't jam into 8 bb's with Q2o-Q6o. Or K2o-K6o. Or J2s -J6s.
I mean, mathematically, it's a mistake for chip EV to fold, even if the other player is calling perfectly. That's why it's a Nash equilibrium range.
As the tournament gets deeper, though, our ranges shift to account for the increased ICM effects and the greater value on the chips we have than the chips we gain. But at the same time, the value of fold equity increases with ICM effects, so you might even be shoving more often and bigger than you would be.
I mean, mathematically, it's a mistake for chip EV to fold, even if the other player is calling perfectly. That's why it's a Nash equilibrium range.As the tournament gets deeper, though, our ranges shift to account for the increased ICM effects and the greater value on the chips we have than the chips we gain. But at the same time, the value of fold equity increases with ICM ef
As long as you know the opponent is reasonably ICM aware or not having a much bigger stack. Probably a good idea to always make a note when players make light calls from BB.
Anyone playing low BI satellites ($10 and below) should also be aware there are many clueless players who will call way to often and way too loose when getting closer to the bubble.
My contrarian thought is that this spot is overexploited by BB shove-callers so I tend to pass on mediocre hands like 95o and I’d rather shove couple rounds later with JTo etc. is this a mistake?
There's a lot of information missing here, it depends on a lot of factors (what stage of tournament - do we have a big ICM impact in-play already etc)
More often that not playing cEV though, BB will rather be too tight. So if your calculation will say shove x with a 10BB stack, purely in cEV, unless you have a big maniac in BB you should shove that, and usually go even wider. With 10BB BvB BB is supposed to call hands like T9s etc. happily. Do you see your usual Reg in your games doing that? Probably not in Micro-/Lowstakes.
"Shoving mediocre hands like 95o" as you say has 2 things you probably forget about, lets say with 10BB:
- With Antes you earn about 2.5BB to your stack, increasing your stack by 25%, this will give you more hands to "wait for hands" while getting a bigger double up when you actually shove, plus a bigger stack will give you more fold-equity shoving "mediocre" hands later on. if you fold down to 3BB you can't talk about fold equity anymore
- Even if you get called, yes you will have the worse hand pretty much all the time, but this doesn't mean you lost the hand. In Poker equities are relatively close, especially in shortstack BvB spots. Just my thinking, but this may be an idea that keeps you behind - shoving and getting called and having the worse hand doesnt mean it's the wrong play.
There's a lot of information missing here, it depends on a lot of factors (what stage of tournament - do we have a big ICM impact in-play already etc)More often that not playing cEV though, BB will rather be too tight. So if your calculation will say shove x with a 10BB stack, purely in cEV, unless you have a big maniac in BB you should shove that, and usually go even wider. Wi
Thanks for a detailed response. I really appreciate it
Dont forget you should limp here quite a lot. It is far from push/fold only spot.
You can shove ATC with ante against some players live who will call too tight. Generally, you should fold the worst hands.
As the other poster mentioned, it is probably good to limp the top and bottom of your range, particularly limp hands with some playability that would be borderline shoves. You don't want to overdo that though, as you are OOP postflop.
Probably limps are better than minraises, because hard to minraise fold with 8xBB. You could minraise big pairs and maybe balance with bad junk. I wouldn't limp anything weaker than JJ+. With 10/AK, it will be difficult to play on bad flops. Limping may not work well against passive players who won't shove into your big pairs.
