777

Does LJ always have trips or better when he raises the turn? What would CO likely think about his range? Is HJ thinking about ranges at all, or stuck on level 0?

Much prefer flop fast play

HJ is probably on level 0 or something close to it.

LJ is raising turn with some flush draws as semibluffs, delayed slowplays, and probably strong jacks with some frequency. CO does not believe LJ only has a 7 or better here, but during the hand, LJ doesn’t necessarily know what type of range CO would put him on.

Correction - HJ is not on level 0 in the sense that if he has a 7 he’s going to just guarantee raise because “i has trips!” He’s passive above all, so he is always thinking to some degree that his hand might be beat, which requires some consideration of what others have.

In other words, it would not be a surprise for HJ to show up with a 7 as played (until he folds).

Assume we don’t know for sure. But possible.

Well I fast play flop. After that I probably just call the three bet and check/call River.

The three bet into two people should be very strong (although there should be that many 7s in his range). If we miss a bet versus AA so be it

Oof, I didn't notice he folded. Called two cold and then folded for one more, closing the action? Bizarre.

I would tend to fastplay flop despite getting a pretty good price and config to peel just about every overcards hand in our range and necessitating slowplay. I really don't know what's best (slowplay vs fastplay) and would find a deep dive here fascinating if I only had games to play and apply insights.

As played I think just call the turn 3bet. We're blocking his semibluffs (and read is he's less inclined to 3bet them?) with the hearts in our hand so he should be more reliable to bet the river.

River straightening card changes the texture that we could have some T8s while CO cannot. so should probably lead some trips and this one seems like a good candidate.

Note I'm not exactly sure what the river card was. I should have said that in the top post. If river was a 2, are you advocating check/calling? Check/raising?

Kr an undercard brick I think. Underlying assumptions are he just doesn't 3bet much connecting with the board. Not 44(??), only one A7s left. Not K7s. 87s seems ambitious but maybe. And we slow played flop but that might be a spot where reasonable disagreement could be had between solid players. I do see that the read might shade away from river betting. but overall I think our hand is worth one more raise whether turn or river.

If I were in LJ's shoes, I would also favor fast playing flop and just calling the 3bet on the turn. It's not that we are hating our hand, but if I were CO and I saw that LJ raised turn and HJ called two cold, I think there is a very good chance one of them has a 7, so my 3b range here is going to consist primarily of hands that can beat most 7x. (A broader point is that the HJ's presence in the hand is going to force everyone to play more honestly.)

Thanks all, appreciate the thoughts. I'll weigh in here.

I understand NFS's inclination to fastplay the flop, but I think this is one of those cases to slowplay. First, as munga points out, we need to peel a ton here, and on top of that, our hand is very durable. Unless we're already beat, the field has very few combined outs to beat us - basically an overpair can hit a set, or they need to go runner runner (I suppose HJ could have 65 but there's nto a lot of combos of that compared to all his other stuff). CO is very likely to double barrel, and if the turn is a card that creates a significant check-back risk (say, a 6 or 5), we can lead and benefit from HJ being caught between.

As played, I think turn check-raise is obvious. When it's back to us, here's what would be going through my head: (1) HJ can easily have the last 7 here; (2) there's only one 7 left though, and he could have flush draws, 65, or even just top pair; (3) CO can have JJ here; (4) my hand is kind of face-up in the sense that most people probably weight you toward a 7 when you take this line, even though we should have other hands, too, so it makes me more fearful of JJ than I otherwise would be; (5) do I want to keep HJ in or not? He did already take two the face, though, so maybe it doesn't matter; and (6) it's a five-bet cap, not a four-bet cap.

At game speed, I'd just call, but it might be MUBSY. On the river, I do think k/r is the above-the-rim play.

Do you have a fast play range on this texture? I like the thinking HU but it just seems like you might be leaving $ on the table with a passive whale stuck between you both.

HJ is passive, but not a whale; I think that overstates how bad he is. In any case, I think CO should have some fastplays, but maybe not 7s or 44. For example, a lot of overpairs are incentivized to raise.

I meant as the LJ after the CO bets the flop, but noted. Is the idea that we want to be raising a range of hands that are doing well versus CO's range but not as durable? Do we have any bluffs when we c/r flop? (I can't think of a lot of good candidates other than 65s; maybe 98s with a BDFD?)

Sorry, I meant to say LJ not CO. My answer was from the perspective of LJ.

And yeah, I feel like we are more incentivized to fastplay less durable hands that still aim to be an equity favorite, especially three ways where there are more combined outs to beat us. In theory, we need to have some bluffs, but because it's a three-way pot, I wouldn't want to take it too far. If four combos of 65s is in LJ's range, that might be enough bluffs here, but if not, we need to find some other bluffs. 98s makes sense, my guess is that we probably have some mix of other stuff like KXs or QXs with bdfd and maybe even something like KJ at some frequency -- hands that have some decent outs but are unlikely to be ahead.

random question - at what stakes does this turn 3b be anything other than jacks full? i dont think ive ever seen a turn 3b multiway that wasnt nutted and ive played as high as 30/60.

in the games i play the correct play for LJ is to fold tbh, crazy as that is. because at worst CO has A7s (and that would be a very aggressive CO player, and if i were CO that would be in my range) and thus at best LJ is drawing almost dead or to a chop.

I mostly play 40 in LA these days (so YMMV) but there are definitely people who will 3bet this turn with anything that can beat AJ. Not everyone, but a significant number of people. I err on the side of fastplaying this sort of spot in 20/40 and below but I am convinced that there is some merit in OP's line here in a bigger game against a good winning player who doesn't have to have the nuts when he 3bets the turn.

I saw a turn 3 bet in a four way pot the other day on a TT53 board with T9. 20-40

Folding would be crazy! I'll post the hand from the opposite perspective in a new thread.