1/2: How do you play low SPR 3-bet pots as PF aggressor when you whiff?

I think about a few things, one of the most important is how many people called me. If the SPR is ~1 you need to see that its only 1 because two people called. When two people call its MUCH harder to get air through and you need hit value or premium imo. No ones folding a pair now for a PSB.

So what ends up happening a lot to me (I have a bluffy semi-wreckless image) is I 3-bet pre, get called in four places, pot is like 200$ and I put in like 40$. Meaning I only have to win the pot whatever, 1/6 times or something. So I lose my 40$ a lot just shutting down after the flop comes 7-4-3FD when I have whatever SBWs like AJs. But when I drill I absolutely wreck everyone because people at my game are calling off their entire stack with 99 on J-J-6 in a 3-bet pot.

Heads up is a different story - A-high can sometimes be the best hand HU and has great SDV. Check/eval sometimes check/call for small sizing is perfectly reasonable on certain boards. Like AK on Q-9-3r in a 3-bet pot.

Ignoring everything else ... those flops aren't the same.

With 1 SPR I don't love folding flop in example 1, even against KQ we are pretty close to call equity if we check and one person shoves.

Hand 1 I think jamming is fine - Hand 2 you can probably get away with a very small bet like 100 and will print money.

After 3betting AJs huge in the SB and getting two callers, you are in a tough spot. Against these stations, I would make a nitty fold pre. Idk. I’m probably biased because I’ve been bleeding money 3betting in the SB. I get you gotta 3bet or fold the SB. But you play for big pots oop and the variance is high.

AP, shove hand 1 but not liking it. Check call is ok.

Hand 2 I like pokerfan: bet 100.

I woild cbet abput 125. You will get enoigh golds representing qq-aa.

AQs in this spot is just as tough AJs. Are you folding AQs preflop too?

Maybe flat call pre at 1/2. They will give this kind of action when you have ak or a big pair, so no need to3! Light.

I basically check range out-of-position to multiple players.

I also think you are thinking about these two boards the wrong way. 964 is a pretty bad board for your range and hand -- the villains may have all of the sets, when you probably only have some 99. They probably won't even fold weak hands like 88 and AQs that are ahead of you. KTXd is a different story. I think I would check-shove on this board. You always have decent equity when called (worst case is like 20%) and can potentially get bet-folds from better (ATs, etc.) and bet-calls from worse (QJs, etc.)

The sad reality is that your hand should probably just fold pre to the massive open from a tight range. I would 3b this hand versus a late position open all day, and would certainly feel better about 3betting a smaller open size.

Checking range is really bad. I would value bet AK on KT6 3-way. Would value bet AA/KK on both flops. If they are folding enough, you can also cbet if you miss. Would keep betting with an overpair, set, or TPTK unless the board is really bad. GTO may tell you to range check, but that is really bad in practice live low stakes.

Well, I think cbetting $125 three ways OOP on 964d (leaving ~half pot behind) is really bad, so agree to disagree 😀

Why? Dont you want to gii with aces

Yes, that's why I would check-shove here with AA.

I also think it's kinda funny that you are decrying "GTO at low stakes" when it comes to checking OOP, but are now insisting that we have to played balanced by treating AJs the same way we would play AA.

Prob not going to respond further here. Different strokes, I guess.

964r is a bad board for everyone's range - it just diverts back to original hand strength and our range remains the strongest. Regardless though the pot is 345 - if we can bet say 100 and they fold everything but PP's+ we print money.

You were saying range check. I said we need to bet AA. It's going to be checked through a lot and you don't want to give two players a free card.

You could bet AJ representing AA or just check/fold and reevaluate turn if checked through. IMO, the cbet gets through enough that it is a good play with little equity.

Range checking after 3-betting is bad, because opponents aren't going to be enough.

1. AQs is better than AJs...like, duh. Even so, I'd likely only be continuing vs. a x7 UTG raise with specific reads on the raiser and the callers. The OP gives no reads at all.
2. The 3-bet is way too large.
3. The only way this is possibly a 3-bet with AJs is if UTG is a spewmonkey and the callers are all weak-tight fish.
4. Too many people overestimate their ability to outplay their opponents when they're OOP.

I don't mind x/f with AJs OOP completely missing the flop. However, I don't agree with range check at all. Low stakes players tend to be loose/passive, like flat calling the huge 3!. When you 3!, they will call, but be concerned you have QQ+/AK a lot. So they aren't going to bet that much. So you need to bet your overpairs, TPTK, good draws, etc. with SPR of like 1.2. If you had an overpair or made the nut flush draw with AJs, you would want to bet/bet, or maybe just shove. You don't want to slow play much multiway and shallow. Range check is bad, even though it might be possible for them to get a read that you are check folding when you check.

Without getting into sizings, I had a hand a couple of days ago where they was an ep raise and 4 callers. I 3! AKo from the BB. Raiser and button called. Flop AK7, 2-flush. I bet 1/3 pot on the flop and both called. Turn was an offsuit 8. I shoved for 2/3 pot. Button called. My hand was good. Button said he had a flush draw. I would never think of range checking because I was OOP 3-way.

I don’t understand the bet/fold mentality from the small blind. Yes, if the button raises, I’m rause/fold, but in this situation I call. Why do you need the iniative in the worst position at the table. You put yourself in a tight spot unnecessarily, overplayed a marginal hand & now will likely get outplayed whatever you do.

Position is important for info, but you can gain info out of position. You call pre & check OOP - then you can gather info and nobody knows the strength of your hand. You are back in control with the powerful check-raise as a tool you can use.

No Limit Wins come from not making big mistakes. Just one of those big mistakes can destroy an entire session. You should do everything you can to avoid situations where you don’t know where you’re at.

Reading boards is useful heads up, but multi-way no board is safe. You can’t depend on any board to shape a strategy with several ranges involved.

You can study to understand.

Not even you.

Which boards exactly when it's going to be 6-7 ways in a 75-90 pot?

Indeed there is very little information/skill in that game, just 7 fish playing bingo and losing long term to rake.

Tell us how you really feel illiterat.

You really shared some great content
O wait, no you didn’t
All you did was tell us how great you are
and what a small person you are
Thanks, now we know

Probably flat call preflop. Difficult to play this hand also when you make either top pair: you need to play for stacks, but you don't know if you are good. They will flat call the 3! with AK/AQ/JJ/QQ, etc. 1/2 players don't get intimidated by the 3!, so just 3! for value. AK/JJ+. Sometimes AQ/TT, etc. to weak sizings and action. Sometimes not JJ to strong action. If you want to 3! light, do it with a suited connector or something, not an easily dominated hand like this.

When you whiff, just x/f or cbet if you think it gets through enough. Don't like shove with no equity. With a backdoor nut flush draw and two overcards on a dry board, then shoving flop might be good.

I usually don't feel like getting banned, ya know.

Read your first response again ... what is the main point? Some of the advice even contradicts other pieces.
It looks a lot like "let's go to a flop 7 ways and play bingo". This is a very common thought process from people who haven't studied much ... it's easy to remember the giant pot you won when you called random cards and hit, it's much more difficult to remember the other 20 times that you lost at least 15 or that time it was "a cooler" when you flopped AJ5 vs. 55 or AA7 vs. A7. Or even worse the time you go for x/r on Ax7d3d and the guy with QQ just snap folds without showing you that although you won the pot you are torching money long term.

Now read my sarcastic/eyerolling/whatever response, the obvious point is that it's difficult to have a strong hand 5+ ways and it's difficult to win a lot of money with a medium strength hand because there are so many cards for two pair or sets or weird gutterballs or whatever. So you'll tend to under realize equity with all of your good but not great hands, and when you'll infrequently get a great hand you also need someone to have something that isn't folding (which is going to be difficult, given you've just called along 10 times but only this time want to pile money in).
I understand that's an annoying point, and difficult to argue against ... but I'm just the messenger.

Even ignoring GTO if there's one spot your average bad 1-2 reg. is pretty good at then going to a flop 5+ ways has to be near the top of the list, maybe you are a bit better ... but it's difficult to be a lot better.
But sure, if your table is full of very bad players who are going to stack off with top pair 6 ways then calling is probably fine.

And, yeh, on the solved side of the argument all of the robots are as good as each other when they are in a simulation but they don't start shrugging and calling 7 ways to see what happens. They are much happier to raise or fold, and they don't care how pretty the hand looks as they fold it (or remember that time from 6 years ago where they won a giant pot with it).

But I've had people scream at me that I don't understand what pot odds are after they snap called 96s multiway in the SB and I say well played after they win a small pot on A96 vs. my AK ... so, it's fine, be that guy. Or block me, w/e.

Thank you
All I’m asking for is an explanation.
This is not my hand - but I’m trying to help.

I’m not much impressed with the strength of AJs, so I expect to fold this hand. I’m not bloating the pot with it because the small blind is supposed to play raise or fold.

Telling me to study is unnecessary.
Picking apart my post without explanation didn’t sit well with me.

So, after all this, I still haven’t heard what you would do. I want sharp people telling me I’m wrong, it’s not that at all.

Just asking you to try to help with explaining how you would play it, so we can improve. That would be better than showing your disdain for us. I expect we’ll have smoother conversations moving forward.

Grunch:

PRE - I don't like 3B'ing hands like AJs from the blinds when there's an EP open and multiple callers. If you're going to make this play, you have to go HUGE with the 3B size, like $150, or at least $125. That size forces opponents to jam if their hand is good enough to 4B, and if it isn't, they'll mostly be folding, not calling.

The $105 sizing you took is what "the book" says to do - 4x from OOP, plus 1x for each caller, so 7x15 = $105. But you're just deep enough for them to call IP and force you to play from OOP post-flop. The way to negate your positional disadvantage is to bloat the pot and bring the SPR down to the point that when you jam the flop they almost always have to fold.

FLOP - On KT6rb, with one diamond, I might jam if I think it looks credible and my opponents are capable of folding. If not, I check and see what happens, making a mental note to whip my own a$$ for 3B'ing AJs from the SB pre.

If someone has 2P or a set here, we're drawing slim, but not dead. We've got the ISSD and BDFD working for us. If someone just has Kx, we've got 3 additional outs (assuming it's not AK). They should be snap-folding TX.

On 964rb, I still might jam. In theory, this board shouldn't connect with their range, and we'll have all the big PP's. We probably have more fold equity, and often more actual equity here than we do on KT6, if we jam KT6 and get called, because on KT6, they're calling with KX, whereas if they call with 9x on 964, all our pair outs are live.

I don't really see the point in making small c-bets from OOP in multi-way pots when the SPR is this low. All we're doing is diminishing our fold equity on future streets, unless our plan was to bet once and give up. In that scenario, we're just torching when they don't fold. And how often do they fold when we c-bet small after raising huge, in a 1 SPR pot? Seems like it's not very often.

My view of these sorts of situations is that we were repping a ton of strength when we 3B to $105 off $500 pre. An all-in jam on the flop looks like AA, KK, or AK on KT6, and JJ+ on 964. Most 1/2 players are going to fold anything that isn't super-nutted if we over-bet jam on the flop for $400, because they'd only do that with the nuts if they were in our position.

So when we get OOL pre by 3B'ing AJs, we just need to follow through and play it like AA. If we get snapped off and lose, we'll know not to 3B AJs from the blinds again.