Ongoing VP TR, PART 2!
Hi all, apparently my previous thread may have gotten so long that it's causing issues for the website. So, here is a ne
For those of us old enough to remember, this is basically Safe Ports Act 2.0. If passed as written this essentially kills people being professional poker players, sports bettors or AP's after 2025.
This portion of the BBB was advanced by Mike Crapo (ID). Sounds like Rep Titus (NV) is introducing the "FAIR Bet Act" on Monday to permanently restore the 100% loss deduction. Really hoping that gains some traction and gets this stuff amended before the BBB is officially passed into law (or whatever the correct wording is).
Know a few other people in the same boat as Leon -- if this bill is enacted as currently written it's an immediate hard stop for them. Will definitely kill a lot of completely legit, tax-paying people's livelihood.
I could still play single line quarters, but I won't be able to increase the bet at all, or any kind of multi-line. Just terrible. I know Leon would die of boredom.
I'd follow a craps TR thread. But don't know how able you are to take pics. I'd imagine your craps action would pale to your VP action, in the eyes of the casino?
Yes there is actually one thing worse than VP in terms of comps: table games. I would assume that if players like Leon moves from UX to craps his comps (unless ridiculous volume) will drop a lot.
I am certain that if this bill actually goes into effect it will mean the end for Vegas as we know it. Not only for US players but for casinos and the whole industry that is already struggling really bad.
For those of us old enough to remember, this is basically Safe Ports Act 2.0. If passed as written this essentially kills people being professional poker players, sports bettors or AP's after 2025.This portion of the BBB was advanced by Mike Crapo (ID). Sounds like Rep Titus (NV) is introducing the "FAIR Bet Act" on Monday to permanently restore the 100% loss deduction. Really
It was officially signed into law yesterday. The tax portion that impacts gamblers goes into effect for tax year 2026.
After reflection, I wonder if this does affect the non-professional VP player. Obviously it will depend on at least moderate volume/stakes etc., but the win/loss net does include gains such as 3 of a kind or better in 9/7 triple double bonus. It wouldn't take much to convince me that if my W2Gs total 100k and my win loss is a loss of 110k that my deductible amount is still 100k. In the course of generating that 110k loss, there will be plenty of these 3 of a kind or better gains that aren't reflected in the W2G amount. So my allowable deduction under the OBBBA change would be (W2G amount + x%(net loss))*90%. In cases where W2G amount and net loss are in the ballpark order of magnitude, I think I'd be comfortable deducting 100% of the W2G amount. If Leon is getting 5 Million in W2Gs and booking a net loss-I'd think he could say the same.
I think the negative impact of OBBBA would be if someone hits a huge score after playing a very short bit of a losing session. Then they hit it and quit it. Say someone is in -1k and then gets $1million jackpot on a slot. Under old rules they could deduct the whole 1k, under OBBBA they would deduct $900 + whatever they wanted to say was gains in that -1k loss session before the jackpot
This doesn’t make sense. You don’t do it by hands, you do it by sessions, and you are supposed to include all winning sessions in income, not just “W2Gs”. Gonna be hard to straight-faced claim your only winnings are exactly handpays.
People with high volume and low margins are who is getting totally murdered in this.
This doesn’t make sense. You don’t do it by hands, you do it by sessions, and you are supposed to include all winning sessions in income, not just “W2Gs”. Gonna be hard to straight-faced claim your only winnings are exactly handpays.
People with high volume and low margins are who is getting totally murdered in this.
That is exactly the problem - W2G's are issued for hands, not sessions. Machine games are unique since they can automatically track the outcome of every bet in a way that is not practical for table games. What I am saying is that the gains that could contribute to what is deductible get lost in the net win/loss statement.
Suppose I walk into the casino and put 5$ in a vp machine. I hit a 4k royal flush. put all the money back into the machine and lose it all. I quit VP forever and the casino statement says I won 4k jackpot and have net won/loss excluding jackpots of $4005. I can only offset 90% of the 4k gain on Schedule A if I itemize. Meaning I have 400$ of phantom income taxed.
Now suppose instead of losing the $4005 straight away without wining anything, I get one full house for a gain of $40 but then lose that and the rest of my jackpot and starting 5$. I still quit VP forever. If I take a picture of that full house, I document that I had the additional $40 gain. My casino statement still has the same info. I played a little bit longer but still ended up losing $4005 as far as the casino is concerned. But now I can say my gains were $4040 - so I can gain an additional $36 of reducing my 4k jackpot gain on my Schedule A. The IRS knows about the W2G $4k but doesn't know about the full house I also won. Good thing I took a screenshot.
If I stay under the W2G limits and play only single line quarters, I never get a W2G. Suppose I have a winning year where I am up $4000. I report that on schedule 1. Should the IRS care what the coin in was and how that impacts the non-reportable potential "gains" and "losses" contributed to how the net win loss ended up being $4000. Technically if you are going on a per hand basis they should and that is what they do for W2G payouts.
I'm surprised the gambling industry doesn't have the power to get this out. Or this was snuck in. Lots of casinos stand to lose a lot
they are applauding it - wouldn't surprise me at all if they were the ones who wrote the language to get winning sports bettors and advantage players to self banof the people who play the kind of volume leon does on those machines, he's probably a rarity in that he'd either understand the consequences and/or care enough about them enough to stop
After reflection, I wonder if this does affect the non-professional VP player. Obviously it will depend on at least moderate volume/stakes etc., but the win/loss net does include gains such as 3 of a kind or better in 9/7 triple double bonus. It wouldn't take much to convince me that if my W2Gs total 100k and my win loss is a loss of 110k that my deductible amount is still 10
Upon reflection, I'm sure the casinos want this. Who loses?
Pros. Poker players. People with a clue.
The average rec gambler probably takes a standard deduction. They were used to paying tax on all wins anyways (bc the only way to offset wins with losses is to itemize). So literally nothing has changed for them. Gamblers who itemize and deduct losses are by definition far more clued into the process and the concepts of high volume, low margin etc. I'm the perfect example. The casino at the end of the day doesn't really want someone like me, even though I'm a favorite to lose along the way. What they want are people far more clueless who are going to play slots with 15% -EV and have little to no clue how to milk the system.
So if the goal is to drive out pros and people with a clue, mission accomplished. Average moron literally doesn't think twice about the changes. I see a lot of parallels with this and the 6:5 blackjack, triple zero roulette, etc. The casinos pulled all that off because ultimately most people are idiots, and who did they lose? The smart/value conscious gambler. Who just gets replaced by another moron 2 sec later.
If the casino billionaires can be seen as contributing to the fake number make up on the bill, even better for them! How "good" of them.
Finally, here's a practical example of how I can get hurt. My numbers many years definitely fall in this range. I hit 500k in W2G and have a net loss of -10k. That means my gross loss would be 510k and I would deduct 500k on my tax return to offset. Once this goes into effect, I'd still have -510k gross loss, could only deduct 90% x 510 = 459k and I would have to pay tax on 41k. It's even worse if I win. The vast majority of my years I've been net winner/loser within 10k to 200k, with gross amounts in the millions. Guaranteed I feel this.
I suppose another way to look at this is, I'm someone that plays a -2% EV game. Turn that to -12% at minimum and I'm gone. Only way to truly offset is to "lose enough"- F that.
Have you considered keeping a more formal gambling diary to substantiate session gambling reporting as discussed in https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Content...
I think you informally keep track of your daily won/lost by casino, vp or table games anyways. Also you snap most of your W2G payouts. It would be a pain, particularly when you switch back and forth from vp to table games or move to another casino. Also sessions need to end/reset at midnight so that would be an inconveniencce as well. But it appears to let you net out daily W2Gs which would potentially shield more of the W2G payout/allowable deduction from the OBBB reporting requirements on the annual IRS filing. Since I generally only play VP at the same casino and quit well before midnight, session reporting via a gambling diary would not be too much of an effort for me.
As an example, in your latest trip report day 1, you start with 40k and end with a net loss of 12 k. So say your VP session was net -7k even tho you had over 8k of W2G payouts documented. So your net for these 2 sessions would be -7k for vp and -5k for craps. Now those would only allow up to 90% of 12k of schedule A if you end up with and reportable gambling income on schedule 1 from other sessions.
Suppose session 3 is at the local for VP and you start with 20k and end up with 30k. Even if none of this is W2G payouts, you have to report the 10k win on schedule 1. Let's say it is a 10k W2G so your total W2G's ytd is 18k.
If these are your only 3 sessions for the year, you report 10k win on schedule 1 - an audit trigger because it is less than the 18k the IRS knows about but which you have your gambling log to defend if needed. Your session losses total to 12k of which you can deduct 90%. Likewise it is common for me to end up with less than my W2G wins by the end of the day (session). Enough of these and the OBBBA change will have much less impact on my 2026 taxes.
Have you considered keeping a more formal gambling diary to substantiate session gambling reporting as discussed in https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Content...I think you informally keep track of your daily won/lost by casino, vp or table games anyways. Also you snap most of your W2G payouts. It would be a pain, particularly when you switch back an
Given how in flux things are right now and how much effort this will take, I'm not going to worry about it right now. I'll wait and see what shakes out over the coming months. I'll be honest part of me is really happy they're FORCING ME to lay off the machines. Keep more of my own money? Gee, ok I guess.
Morons.
AGA can't come out against the bill, they alienate Trump. Then they really are ****ed. So they publicly endorse the bill, then try to kill the provisions that effect them. And they have the cash to do it
I found a gambling log app several years ago that i downloaded to my phone. It makes it pretty easy to record $$$ in/out by day. At the end of the year i print it and hand it to my CPA. I've mainly used to to track total win/loss for the year, but it could also be analyzed by session if that becomes a requirement with this new law. Hoping someone will step in (who???) and cancel this tho. As if we gamblers needed another reason to quit gambling so much.....this is another thing that should force me to rethink my habit/hobby.
I found a gambling log app several years ago that i downloaded to my phone. It makes it pretty easy to record $$$ in/out by day. At the end of the year i print it and hand it to my CPA. I've mainly used to to track total win/loss for the year, but it could also be analyzed by session if that becomes a requirement with this new law. Hoping someone will step in (who???) and cance
I might not understand this fully, but wouldn’t your win/loss statement show the exact same thing? Except for daily, it’s monthly.
Casino W/L is really only accurate for slots and VP. It's very fuzzy for table games and does not cover poker at all.
my w/l rate has never been accurate - but i also do a lot of things to make it more difficult to be accurate
So I got caught up on this thread a few weeks ago before heading out for a relatively quick WSOP trip. Obviously disappointed to see Leon has been running dry of late.
I'm by no means a heavy volume player, if anything the exact opposite. I make it out to Vegas once a year now due to life commitments and what not. I never use to dabble in the pits during my WSOP trips but now it's anything goes because time is limited and I need to make the most of it.
Anyways, I bust out of the WSOP 3k and have dinner at Bellagio and head over to play a little VP and slots. The high limit room at Bellagio was temporarily closed due to it being renovated but they had a sections partially walled off as a temporary high limit area to the left of it. In the past, at Bellagio there was only 4 VP stations that let you play $5 and they backed up to the walkway near Club Prive. Much to my surprise in the temporary high limit area, they did have a row of VP machines which started at $5 versus $10 or $25 which I had seen in the past. I spin it up on some slots for a few and head over to the machine which caught my eye.
The machine I was on was an adventure. In a relatively short period I had a bizarre number of draws to massive hands, 4 cards to a royal, 3 aces with a kicker, 3 4s with a kicker twice and converted zero of those. They came so frequently I started to take pictures on my phone because I was like man I guess I can add this to the thread at some point. I burn through one of my tickets and I think about it for a second and fire off another bullet. A few hands later this occurred.
Pretty awesome and certainly an insane long shot that hit. (Held two aces) This wouldn't have been possible without this thread years ago, so hopefully I can send some run good towards our fearless leader Leon.
Once I got my handpay I cashed out and called it a night. However, while waiting to get my W2G and cash some random person sat down next to me and tried to insert a ticket with 50 cents on it and said something in my direction which I didn't fully hear. The whole thing was odd and while I was waiting I started to get this feeling that I was being watched because the damn machine plays this loud jingle when you hit a huge jackpot. Honestly the guy was likely just some drunk and stumbled into the high limit area by accident but I was uncomfortable enough that I asked for security to walk me to the elevators just in case. I thought about leaving this detail out, but I think it's worth posting because there's nothing wrong about asking for security if you think there's an oft chance that you might end up as a cautionary tale. (There's been a lot posted to 2p2 over the years)
Once I got my handpay I cashed out and called it a night. However, while waiting to get my W2G and cash some random person sat down next to me and tried to insert a ticket with 50 cents on it and said something in my direction which I didn't fully hear. The whole thing was odd and while I was waiting I started to get this feeling that I was being watched because the damn machin
i do some slot ap to kill time between making sports bets
with some machines, the screen makes it abundantly clear that i'm nearing a large bonus long before it happens
so it's not unusual to see someone take a seat next to or near me, pretend to be gambling but are just watching me and cheering me on, saying words of encouragement hoping it gets there etc etc
and then when the feature finally pops, i'm always asked if i can help them out with a little cash
happened last night in fact, even though it was abundantly clear that i lost a few hundred on the play (the feature was crap) and despite that we both knew i'd lost - i was telling her "oh no this isn't good looks like i'm going to lose a few hundred despite hitting it" she still had the gaul to ask me for monies
and i've also witnessed people hit a big side bet in blackjack or hit a jackpot and then just hand their neighbors $100 each - total strangers who they haven't said a word to but were just nearby when they hit something for 5k and they are buzzed and feeling like spreading the karma
Pretty awesome and certainly an insane long shot that hit. (Held two aces) This wouldn't have been possible without this thread years ago, so hopefully I can send some run good towards our fearless leader Leon.
Nice hit, particularly on a single-liner!
That said, 9/5 at $5 denom is ugly 😮. Return is only 97.02% with a house edge of 2.98%.
Or in other words, compared to 9/6 (which should be pretty standard at $1 denom and above) every time you hit a flush you're taxed for an extra 25 bucks.
Nice hit, particularly on a single-liner!
That said, 9/5 at $5 denom is ugly 😮. Return is only 97.02% with a house edge of 2.98%.
Or in other words, compared to 9/6 (which should be pretty standard at $1 denom and above) every time you hit a flush you're taxed for an extra 25 bucks.
Hah! That's amazing I didn't even notice that. The 4 regular bays just outside of the temporary high limit area I'm quite certain were still 9/6. It's possible it changed this year and I didn't notice but it was 100% 9/6 prior.
There was a set of very old 10 dollar machines just outside the poker room with a progressive that were certainly 9/5 when I looked. (I think the progressive was barely over the min.)
I did see post that Cosmo has basically single digit VP machines left that aren't at a bar top, so it's possible the MGM bean counters are tightening things up even more...
I’m fairly computer illiterate so can’t put a link to this but slot handpay amounts increasing to $2,000 in 2026.
Slots and VP still unplayable for anyone that might win or come close to breaking even gambling.
I’m fairly computer illiterate so can’t put a link to this but slot handpay amounts increasing to $2,000 in 2026.
My understanding is that this is not the case. I.e., this threshold increase has to do with 1099s and not W2-Gs. There's been a lot of misinformation, but Russell Fox made this clear on Bob Dancer's podcast w/ Richard Munchkin.
July 24-27 TR
It's that time! Just got back obv. I'll let everyone know in advance that this TR is probably going to come in more stages and more slowly than usual- I'm looking at the busiest week of work I've had in years and likely will not have time for long posts.
Background- my bankroll is/has been on life support. This trip coincides with a 5200 freeplay offer from Wynn the same weekend as a free slot tournament/1500 freeplay from FB. Plus, it will be about 1.5 months from my last Vegas visit and that's about the time I start Jones-ing. While I'm sure I won't get anything from the slot tournament, there's too much potential value to pass up this weekend.
I had to twist D's arm to be able to go, but ultimately he was able to get an invite to the tourney at FB as well so he's in. We both really need to survive this weekend at a minimum. Scores definitely welcome and even better.
Plan- stay/play at Wynn. We had to make reservation at FB as well, my goal is not to burn that place but I will if I have to in the interests of survival. We get in Thurs at the Wynn, our reservation at FB is Fri-Sun.
Agenda-
Thurs- D and I get in (separate flights, I'm a little earlier). Dinner at Sinatra.
Fri- Wynn Masterclass with their security dogs! After, we head to FB to check in/play/reg for slot tournament. Dinner at Papi Steak at FB
Sat- start at Wynn, head to FB to play slot tournament, time TBD based on when we play. Dinner at Washing Potato at FB.
Sun- head home
Bankroll- 37k. Had to borrow money from my mom to ensure I had the cash. I set up a stop win on my NVIDIA stock to make sure I could pay my mom back but I didn't want to sell unless I had to. Alas, the stop kicked in just before the trip. So, good news, I was able to pay mom back immediately. Bad news- that portion of NVDA is now gone...
Other stuff- my brother is still in Vegas and will join for dinner Fri and Sat. I will definitely play at FB bc they have a qualifier for a free play giveaway that I can hit in my sleep. Plus, as mentioned I don't want to burn FB if I can help it and I fully expect to get my meals comped (but will understand if I don't bc I low-played them). I also fully expect my next FB offer will be lower- oh well. I have to survive. Only scenario in which I play more is if D and I are killing it by the time we get there, only scenario in which I totally burn them is if D and I are getting crushed by the time we get there. Guess we'll see!
I also plan on going back to more UX at Wynn and DSTP at FB. Basically more multiplier/carnival games vs multiline. When I look at my current cold streak, I basically haven't been dealt anything and have been running like crap. But, I've had many sessions in the past that were saved or even were amazing based solely off a random multiplied lightning strike. If I play primarily multiline and don't get dealt a god hand, I basically am going to guarantee myself a loss grinding myself down, letting the math kick in over 1000s of hands and never once having a chance at something massive unless... I get dealt a god hand. Carnival games I can still get a dealt a god hand AND I could get a lightning strike hit. I just have to be prepared for some seriously short sessions if I don't hit anything, but I've got to maximize my chance of a win.
Day 1
Flight in is fine and we're on our way! As some may remember, my last trip here was at FB and I'm looking forward to being back at the Wynn.
I'm informed my room is ready despite the early hour (almost noon), at the same time another guest is being told their room is NOT ready. I'm ok with this result.
Drop my stuff off and head to the bar to grab some good bourbon, then it's finally time for battle. I've been giddy with anticipation while trying to balance it with the knowledge I need to play slowly and enjoy this. I could be stuck real badly, real soon. I head to hi limit and play on the UX machines there. I don't know if I mentioned in my previous TR but they got rid of all the old school machines which were my favorites to play on. So the only option now is hi limit on the newer machines. I know it's the same game but the look/feel is just subtly different and I'm not a fan. It's my only option, though.
I feed in 1k and start with 10 lines. That's gone in a flash and I tap into my free credit.
Start.
And we're on the board, no fuss! Great result, no doubt about it.
End. 200% payback.
This is what I'm playing for, but needs to be a bit bigger.
Despite these hits, I've bled back a significant portion of my win. At some point I was almost at 20k, but I very quickly dip under 10k again. I'm not getting many premium trips and obv 4AWAK/Royal is the one hand that refuses to show up.
CLEARLY I can hit 4x on regular trips. No multipliers, of course. I think I've whiffed trip aces 3x at this point. So tilting.
I'm hemorrhaging. I put so much back in that UX machine, even after stepping down to 5 play. Doesn't matter. I then move to multiline despite what I had planned bc I'm just LOSING SO FAST at UX. That slows the bleed down, but I hit nothing of significance. I'm starving and take a much needed break at Red 8. Technically I'm only down 1k, but I gave back way too much. ARGH
My usual sea bass and green beans. 9/10 today, so good bc I was so hungry.
D finally arrives just as I'm finishing lunch. Perfect. Let's play some dice, I can't go back to the machines just yet. We walk over to Encore.
This session was a dream. We walk up and immediately D's roll is decent. I follow, nothing great but we still win a little money. More people show up and somehow everyone manages to sneak in a decent roll. We are steadily chipping up, having fun and at some point I'm up enough that I know even if the session turns, I'm locking in a win. That's a great spot to be in and craps sessions like these are great if for no other reason than one gets to play for a LONG time and you're not in danger of getting felted. I wish they could all be like this.
4s and 10s were just killing it this session and at some point someone manages to sneak in a GREAT, not good roll. I've been pressing less hard than I usually do but I still managed to get the 10 up to 1200$ on this one, starting from 100$. I THINK I went 100-125-150-200-300-500-800-1200, so that's 7 hits!
Chip stack at some point.
Chip stack. I've got the whole back row filled!
D and I played AT LEAST 3 hrs. Our dinner resv is coming up! At some point, the table finally turns and we see two point-seven out rolls in a row. That's it, we're done here. What a session!
In for 2.5k, out for 15.5k and change.
Just phenomenal. Just the dream start we both needed. This might actually be my single largest craps win ever, I'm not sure on that. It's even better for D, I think he booked a 10k win but for him (starting bankroll 5k) and the fact he basically only ever partners with me 10% on VP, this is absolutely huge for him. He can coast for the whole trip and he's likely going home winner- we can say that for a fact a few hrs into the trip! How phenomenal for him and a huge weight off his shoulders right from the get go.
We head back to the room to change and chill out, then back to Encore for dinner at Sinatra!
Rest of Day 1 coming soon... Up 12k right now.
